Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: Cory Ander on October 04, 2006, 07:33 AM
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Hi All,
Has anyone ever been despicable enough to rummage through the waste bins of Indian restaurants (you know, the big bins, out the back)? ;D If so, what have you found regarding the ingredients and brands that they use?
Failing that (for the less despicable amongst us!) what have you observed in their kitchens?
In particular, I'm thinking of confirmation of the types of ingredients that they use? For example:
- Oil or ghee?
- Bottled curry pastes or curry powders?
- Commercially prepared curry powders or individual spice powders?
- Commercially supplied spice powders or freshly gound whole spices?
- Individual whole spices of commercially supplied mixtures?
- Commercially prepared (eg bottled purees or pre-peeled) or fresh garlic and ginger?
- Tinned tomatoes or purees/pastes or fresh?
- Tinned or dried lentils?
- Bottled or dried or fresh mint?
- Bottle or fresh lemon and lime juices?
- Dried (ie leaves) or powdered or fresh fenugreek?
- Desiccated or creamed or tinned or fresh coconut ?
- Artificial or natural food colours?
- etc
Unfortunatley, I am not currently in the UK......otherwise I'd definately be doing it myself ('cause I'm truly despicable!). :P
I'd imagine you'd find lots of evidence of the ingredients and brands that they use......
Despicable, I know, but just a thought!..... ::)
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How do you thing competitive restaurants discover what is going on Layne? Yes they do use all or some of your list. It depends on the chef, the area the outlet is based (social needy, middle class, wealthy), i.e. they have to be both price conscious and therefore moderate their costs versus profit accordingly.
We seem to be getting very hung up on purist points; the holy grail thing. As I have said before, you need to learn the cooking techniques used in BIRs and adapt them (if need be ) to your own cooking environment. The ingredients are not always that important to a BIR, it is the quality of the Chef and what he or she chooses to use to make the mark. I not that some of the 'Old Hands' here consistently remind members of these points. It is practice, practice, practice; I got my confidence when I started to get Asian friends asking me for my recipes, and paying me compliments rather than the other way around.
Be patient and practice your techniques and happy cooking
C P
But what the heck, this is a great debate, and I have been part of the global bit since I originally started curry making back in the 60s. I got a little worried at one time because I thought it would take precedence over beer, but thankfully beer won!! :D
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Just a point on powdered Ginger and Powdered Garlic. You might frown on their use, but they have been staple ingredients for Asian cooking on the Indian Continent forever! They are very important ingredients for Madras regional dishes and some Kashmiri dishes. One of my Indian chef friends swore that the only way to make a decent BIR Madras or Vindaloo was to use powdered garlic and ginger (with his base of course), sometime uses a bland flavoured paprika powder to give it more bulk and colour.
So are we chasing what in fact Indian restaurants use, what is used in traditional/ethnic curries, or what we need to use in our homes to recreate those flavours and aromas?
Perplexed for a bit
Happy Adventuring
C P
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...So are we chasing what in fact Indian restaurants use, what is used in traditional/ethnic curries, or what we need to use in our homes to recreate those flavours and aromas?
Perplexed for a bit
Please don't be perplexed CP! :P
It is very clear to me what I am after.....
.....what, in fact , run-of-the-mill high-street (i.e. good), British Indian Restaurants use as ingredients (and techniques of course). The taste, aroma and appearance, that they thereby create, is what I wish to recreate at home! I am absolutely certain that I will only be able to recreate these using similar ingredients and techniques to those used by BIRs!
To this end, I am interested in what members here have observed.....as fact....regarding the ingredients that BIRs use.
I hope this clarifies the intent of my question?
Happy cooking! 8)
PS: You see....it's......."THAT ELUSIVE BIR TASTE" that I'm after! ;)
PPS: Thank you for your posts CP! They are very interesting and informative :)
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I have spotted big tubs of Khyber vegetable ghee outside my local Indian restaurant and so that is what I use!. I am also sure that powdered garlic or garlic granules are used as well as fresh garlic in the cooking of a typical BIR dish.
You know, it's amazing how many times over the last 20 years or so I have bought a new book or seen a recipe and thought WOW... Yes that is it...that is the secret!!...only to be disappointed at the end result. With this site I am getting excited again as there are quite a few ingredients, tips and ideas I hadn't thought of or tried out yet. So this weekend I will be bringing out the 'big pan' again, crying into my onions and opening the kitchen windows and door!...or should I just get a takeout...only joking of course, slap my wrists :-X
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Hi All,
Has anyone ever been despicable enough to rummage through the waste bins of Indian restaurants (you know, the big bins, out the back)? ;D If so, what have you found regarding the ingredients and brands that they use?
...You haven't have you Cory Ander?
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It is OK Cory A, I am not offended, in fact flattered. I think you are absolutely correct with your observations on the ingredients used by BIRs. But it is not purist, there is no simple answer, and technique and equipment play a major part in creating 'that taste'.
I am a sort of BIR with a different approach, but I do take-aways, banquets etc as a professional business; I turned professional about 6 years ago. Our new kitchen was built to support the business, but we made some minor mistakes and one big one - we bought a domestic look-alike range cooker (cheaper) which is almost a complete failure, so we shall replace it with a professional one at some point.
I too have searched for that Holy Grail, and I am happy now with my own selection of bases and the Ultimate of course, as they satisfy the needs of my local market. My customers no longer go to the other takeaways/restaurants in the local towns and villages as the norm, so we must have got something right. They like your good self were our driving force desperate for us to produce that curry house taste before they would make the leap. NO, to be honest we haven't cracked it... yet; we are nearly there and with the new cooker we shall.
We are thinking of opening a full blown Takeaway or maybe even a small restaurant, because we have a lot of backers financial and other wise. I only mention this because I do understand what you are searching for, and yes I have done a lot of observation and talking in the past, and it is different with each BIR. I have even been offered membership of the Guild of Bangladesh Restaurateurs, and may take it to see if it opens the secrets door!
If you wish, I will post on the 'Hints and Tips' what I know to be the standard ingredients, but they will be my list and each BIR will be different. By the way one of the key differentiators, which I have not seen emphasised enough here, is the Gram Masala. This is usually the Chefs signature and what makes one BIR different from another.
As you know the vast majority of restaurants and takeaways are Bangladeshi, and thus the dishes are almost identical in every one of them, so if you crack one you have got the basics for them all. They have their own food associations and journals and share the information we seek between them on the QT of course.
The great variations in dishes arise in the Kashmiri, Nepalese, Indian and Pakistani restaurants, but they sadly are rare, usually very up market or embedded in the appropriate Asian domestic/work communities. This is my area of speciality as I tend to use their techniques ingredients and flavours; that is what differentiates me for the mob here! Mind you we only have one or two decent BIRs on the Island (besides mine of course ;D)
Sorry to be long winded but I thought I should put forward a professional view, and of course I will help in any way I can to find the HG of Birs (if there really is such a thing).
Keep up your excellent work and I am sure you will teach me a few things, I am always learning!! I am certainly going to try the recipes. By the way, my quest is for fast cooked dishes with the taste and I would appreciate any recipes methods that focus on them.
Happy questing
C P
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Hi CP!
I posted this a while ago, if you havent tried it, i would recommend you do - This is probably my favourite garam masala, very different from the norm.
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=491.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=491.0)
Regards Ashes
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So, Chris has spotted big tubs of vegetable ghee and is pretty sure that BIRs use this.......thanks Chris :)
.....but what are you saying, CP and Ashes?......That you've rummaged through the waste bins of run-of-the-mill high-street BIRs and seen (or observed in their kitchens) that they use Garam Masala? :-\
For me, I am interested in Bangladeshi BIR ingredients and techniques because they, as far as I understand it (and as you rightly point out CP) consitute the vast majority of BIRs in Britain. And, as you also rightly point out CP, "the dishes are almost identical in every one of them, so if you crack one you have got the basics for them all"....I totally agree!
So, any advances on vegetable ghee anyone?......... 8)
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Hey this is good, because as a newbie to the Forum I am not sure as what has gone before and how we all tick.
I will tell you what is in my main spice cupboard and later what is in my special spice cupboard (those I use for special dishes). These are mainly big jars holding 1/2 to 1KG of dry ingredients. These I know you will find on all BIR shelves. The ones with stars (*) are used in the final dish production, the others are ones used in initial or final production processes. I guess there will be no suprises!
* White Cumin seed
Black cumin seeds
* Ground Coriander
Coriander seeds
* Fresh Coriander
Mace Blades
Whole Nutmeg
Cassia bark
Cinnamon bark
* Cinnamon powder
Cloves
* Clove powder
Cardamom green pods
Cardamom brown pods
* Cardamom powder
Methi seeds
Methi leaves
* Methi ground
* Garlic powder
* Garlic granules/salt
* fresh coriander
Ginger Powder
Bay leaves
* Panch Phoran mix
* dried curry leaves
* fresh curry leaves when available
Whole black pepper
Cracked black pepper
Sea salt
Hot Chillies whole dry
Mild Chillies whole dry
* Mid-heat cherry chillies whole dry
* Cayenne
* Paprika mild
* paprika strong (not roasted)
Amchur
Kalonji
Allspice berries
Turmeric
* Mexican chilli seeds
* Seschuan peppercorns
Fennel seeds
Yellow mustard seeds
* Brown mustard seeds
* Black mustard seeds
Ajwain
Chickpeas dried
Pomegranate seeds
melon seeds
Pumpkin seeds
Various Garam Masalas
Various curry powders
And that is just one cupboard! We do Mexican and Chinese which account for a couple of the ingredients (sorry). But I bet if you walk in to any BIR kitchen this is what you will find. Normally they will have pots of various dry spices, masalas, and pastes around the cooker, as well as their bases and warm oil. I got most of the info because I was invited around a lot of kitchens at one time until the Health and Hygiene people tightened up, so as I worked for Local government as a Consultant and then as a paid officer I used to ask the Health & Hygiene guys to check out what they keep on the shelves!
As far as oils are concerned there are three basic used, vegetable, groundnut, and mustard. Mustard has been officially banned by the EC because there is a suspicion that one of the acids in it might faintly be near to or slightly carcinogenic. I have spoke to the chief scientist of the company that makes it in UK (Aintree Liverpool) and he says it is a load of rubbish and quite safe. Mustard oil is mainly used in pickles but quite good for Madras or Vindaloo in small doses.
The reason for using Ghees is that they have an extremely high smoke and flash point, much higher that oils, and they also retain their chemical composition unlike oils that can become toxic. I use Veg and Butter ghee, most restaurants use veg ghee.
I am not sure if it is this thread but the reason you do not see whole spices in the curry very often is because the general public do not like them, they can be dangerous (choking), or they are ground up in the final base making process. It is safer all round not to leave them in; we extract most of them before we serve.
Hope this helps in some way.
Happy Cooking
C P
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Hi Cory!
Its difficult to snoop around in swedish bins as they are usually kept within a locked "trash room" but im inclined to agree with many people here, that the secret lies more in techniques and equipment than in certain products which produce a BIR style flavour.
There are a few restaurants in Stockholm that produce a fantastic indian curry albeit not a typical BIR one, Indian Garden is garanteed to produce consistently good food, the tables are so close together than on occasions you are forced to stand up to let people pass. Thats if you can get a table :)
Indian Garden http://www.indiangarden.se/ (http://www.indiangarden.se/)
Regards A
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Sorry guys, maybe I?ve lost (or am losing) the plot! :P
I appreciate all that you say about the importance of techniques in replicating ?that BIR taste?. However, it seems to me that the ingredients simply MUST play an equally important role, and that the secret to unlocking ?that BIR taste? requires using both the right ingredients AND the right techniques (the right techniques will require the right equipment, of course).
For example, I went through a spell of roasting and grinding whole spices to make my own garam masala, curry powders and curry pastes. My friends were well and truly impressed!?. ::)
BUT!?the curries, that I then produced, were simply too overpowering (and the flavours were not sufficiently diffuse).....compared to BIR curries, that is.
AND!...I thought that I?m damned sure that your ?run-of-the-mill, decent, high-street, (Bangladeshi), BIR? would not do this because it?s too time consuming and therefore expensive!
SO!....it was out with the roasted and ground whole spices and in with the commercially produced, off-the-shelf, garam masala, curry powders, curry pastes and powdered spices!
As I stated in another thread, my ?simple? (ha, ha) aim is to recreate BIR (i.e. run-of-the-mill, decent, high-street, Bangladeshi) curries (with ?that taste?) at home. To do so, I try to use the ingredients and techniques that I believe these restaurants use. For me, the ingredients include the following:
- The cheapest possible (but decent) oil (as well as limited use of ghee)
- Bottled curry pastes and commercially prepared curry powders (as well as use of some fresh whole spices)
- Commercially ground spices (seldom roasted and ground fresh whole spices)
- Bottled garlic and ginger purees (as well as copious amounts of fresh)
- Tinned tomatoes, purees and pastes (as well as limited use of fresh)
- Tinned lentils (as well as dried)
- Bottled and dried mint (seldom, if ever, fresh)
- Bottle lemon and lime juices (seldom fresh)
- Dried and powdered fenugreek (seldom, if ever, fresh)
- Desiccated, tinned and creamed coconut (seldom, if ever, fresh)
- Powdered chilli (as well as fresh)
- Artificial food colours??
- etc?
I was hoping that this thread might solicit "eye witness accounts" of these types of ingredients being used (or otherwise, of course!)
By the way, I'm certainly not saying that other varieties of curry are in anyway inferior, or less desirable; it's just that it is not my personal aim to produce these other types of curry.
Maybe I?m being anything BUT purist CP? :P
Thanks for you inputs! A great debate with very valid and interesting points of view....as always! 8)
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Perhaps this begs the question - is there a truly unique BIR taste or perhaps just a variant on a common taste . Of all the Indian restaurant kithens that I have been privileged to observe in over many years , they all tend to do " it " a bit differently . Is it ingredients , quantities , re-claimed oil , heat . technique or all of the afore-mentioned ? There are restaurants that do not employ the use of a base sauce ( re-inventing traditional recipes ) yet claim to be authentic BIR . You could list the cooking ingredients employed by numerous restaurants and basically draw a blank when it comes to a common theme because the list would be both varied and endless . I guess the bottom line might well be , when you find a taste that you prefer , try to both improve and reproduce it on a regular basis .
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Hi CP!
I posted this a while ago, if you havent tried it, i would recommend you do - This is probably my favourite garam masala, very different from the norm.
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=491.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=491.0)
Regards Ashes
Thanks Ashes, I will give it a try. The Urad (dhall) I think is there solely as a latent thickening agent.
Happy cooking
C P
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It could be.. im sure it has some flavour although it might be very subtle. I would normally suspect its there to bulk out the packet so as to make as much profit as possible, but i doubt thats the Hari Kristna styley. If it is there soley as a thickening agent it would be better to leave it out. Anyway it smells the business and gives a "creamy" spiceiness to indian food.
Ashes
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Errrr.......with respect, I thought this particular thread was about the ingredients that people have seen BIRs using?
So what has a discussion on the role of urad dhal in some obscure garam masala recipe got to do with it? Shouldn't this rather be in a different (more relevant) thread or in a separate thread? :-\
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If youre going to moan Woks Up pls use the correct thread, this is reserved for dustbins and urad dahl ;)
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Correct, Ashes. See my last post W U, the Forum is evolving all the time and as the great Guys & Gals who run this site see the trends etc., they add new areas, e.g. Hints, Tips etc. Indian cooking is a great adventure, and like all adventures we get off the beaten track and sometimes lost ;) :). Hopefully now we will be able to focus our input to the correct areas, but I do hope that we might digress occasionally and then put the topic in the right place; free thought is a great way to creativity, whether in this case it is after the Birvinci Code of BIR cooking or traditional recipes.
Risquer heureux
CP
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Hi Woks Up,
I'm afraid this forum has always been like this with long threads going totaly of track but hopefully none of the important information should be lost. This paticular group "Lets talk curry" is for just that, chat, so you should really expect the threads to go of track slightly as it is for general curry related talk. Recipes and other important info should be posted to the relevant groups and linked to here, if you take a look at the posting rules it does actually explain this:
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=237.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=237.0)
ck
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Perhaps the information highway requires a traffic cop to direct the info on the site....are we getting too big ! :)
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:D
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- Oil or ghee?
- Bottled curry pastes or curry powders?
- Commercially prepared curry powders or individual spice powders?
- Commercially supplied spice powders or freshly gound whole spices?
- Individual whole spices of commercially supplied mixtures?
- Commercially prepared (eg bottled purees or pre-peeled) or fresh garlic and ginger?
- Tinned tomatoes or purees/pastes or fresh?
- Tinned or dried lentils?
- Bottled or dried or fresh mint?
- Bottle or fresh lemon and lime juices?
- Dried (ie leaves) or powdered or fresh fenugreek?
- Desiccated or creamed or tinned or fresh coconut ?
- Artificial or natural food colours?
- etc
Never any ghee, always KTC oil (oil is put on hot naans too)
All bottled pastes by Pataks (tandoori,tikka,balti and kashmiri masala), Natco powdered spices
Only a few spices too
Coriander,cummin,turmeric,madras curry powder,chilli,garam masala
No bottled garlic or ginger. Always fresh
Wholes spices are white cummin, coriander seeds, white cummin, bay leaves
Tinned and fresh tomatoes, tomato puree
Never canned lentils, always dry
Canned spinach
Always bottled mint (for chutney and tikka marinade)
Bottled lemon juice
Always dried fenugreek
Coconut powder and dessicated
KTC or East End colours
The above are used at three very good takeaways, but none produce the "taste"
They make very fine curries but need to be eaten fresh
If frozen they come back bland, oily and lacking flavour.
Frozen curries with the taste freeze and reheat losing very little
Whatever creates the "taste" has got to be other than the above list
The aroma of the "taste" seems very unspice like
I can't can't make it, but neither can most of my local takeaways either.
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Not suprising really, a bit like our waste bins (on a slightly smaller scale) :-X
I note the canned Spinach. Most BIRs use this these days and I reckon that gives the BIR taste to their Saag dishes. My local BIRs use both tinned and frozen. the frozen is used for Saag Gosht (dry fried Spinach & Lamb) which is one of my geat favorites. Anyone got a recipe for this that is rated?
CP
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Thanks for your input Haldi. At last! Some more actual observations on the ingredients that BIRs actually use!....... ;D
....but I was a little (read "very"!) disappointed to see that none of the three BIRs produce "the taste"? :o
.....I had no idea that there are so many crap BIRs around? :'(
....do you have any observations for BIRs that DO produce "the taste" Haldi? :-\
Thanks again :)
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There are many Bir's now that seem unable to produce "The taste".
I have only one within 20 miles of myself now :(
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It is my belief it is because they are mainly Bangladeshi and all their cooks seem to be trained in the same cookery school and work to the prescribed standard recipes that are cost efficient and suit the majority of palates. Sad isn't it. I would go an rummage in my local BIRs bins but they know I am a competitor so I am not sure how it would be if I was found out! Might be easier to get to know the local Biffa drivers :-\
If you want to be in the know perhaps you should join the Bangladeshi Restaurateurs Guild here http://www.gbruk.org.uk/news4.htm (http://www.gbruk.org.uk/news4.htm)
Happy searching
CP
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.....it is my belief it is because they are mainly Bangladeshi and all their cooks seem to be trained in the same cookery school and work to the prescribed standard recipes that are cost efficient and suit the majority of palates. Sad isn't it........
But CP, it's Bangladeshi BIR curries (with "the taste") that I wish to emulate!
So, sad that Bangladeshi's produce such curries? Definately not!
Sad that so many BIRs seems to lack "the taste"? Definately!.....but it is surely nothing to do with the reason you cited here! :o
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Thanks for your input Haldi. At last! Some more actual observations on the ingredients that BIRs actually use!....... ;D
.....I had no idea that there are so many crap BIRs around? :'(
....do you have any observations for BIRs that DO produce "the taste" Haldi? :-\
Thanks again :)
These places make very tasty curries, so "crap" is a bit harsh
But as for observations of "taste" BIR's, I have found one very important thing
The "taste" originates from their curry base
NO doubt about it
I have had two bases from places with the "taste", and both contain this awesome flavour
I also obtained base samples from places without the "taste"
And guess what?
No "taste" in the base.
There are loads of recipes on this site which provide a very similar result of the no "taste" base
But I want that extra mile
The "taste" base is very mild
No chilli heat and has the "taste" aroma
When I bought some back, the smell filled the car
Incredible when you think that the sauce was in a sealed plastic carton and a carrier bag too
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I have had two bases from places with the "taste", and both contain this awesome flavour
Did you see the base sauce spooned out of the saucepan in front of your eyes and are you 100% sure nothing else was added before the take away container was handed to you? When I asked for a sample of base sauce, it was taken out the back, and I'm sure something else was added.
Regards
George
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But CP, it's Bangladeshi BIR curries (with "the taste") that I wish to emulate!
Precisely!
The best curries/best curry house I have ever had/used was made/run by a Bangladeshi who, unfortunately, retired and took his secret with him.
However, I for one am not going to try and confuse the issue by trying to suggest that every perfect curry everywhere in the world has to be identical to the ones made by that guy, nor that he or she should be of a particular nationality/race.
Perhaps part of the problem of not being able to emulate proper restaurant curries is that the matter is repeatedly confounded by people forcefully claiming this or that is the answer (or a definite part of it)... they can't ALL be. And I suspect most probably aren't.
I don't even think we're all aiming for the same thing!
One thing is clear: one person's 'perfect' curry is almost certainly different to the next person's.
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OK.
Question for those who have a Bir with" The taste" Or "the Smell".
If you buy two identical Curries with the Taste & keep one for the next day & re-heat it you find that "the Taste" or smell has almost if not all gone, i have asked this countless times, does someone else notice this?
If so (this is for you who are Chefs) does this not indicate it to be a flavor enhancer.
Common this may end up being an important clue peeps.
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Great comments guys and a great question Darth.......but please can we keep this thread focused on the original question (i.e. BIR ingredients)?
Maybe other questions can rather be (and are better off being) asked in a new thread?
Humble thanks :P
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OKEE DOKEEE New thread done ;D
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Many thanks Darth ;D
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It's a long time since I had a takeaway curry and had any left over the next day. But I can say with 100% certainty that when I've had a good curry with the taste and smell in the past, it always tasted and smelled exactly the same the next day, with the smell particularly infused in the exces oil and coming off the curry even when cold.
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Speaking from my own personal experience, I have never had a curry which tasted as good as or better than the original the next day. I find that they lose moisture, and when you heat them up (the rice especially) goes all damp because of the water being driven out of it (if you microwave) or bone dry (if you use the oven). This applies to ones from what I class as 'good' curry houses as well as those from run-of-the-mill ones.
Again, it again begs the question: are we all looking for and comparing the same things?
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....these places make very tasty curries, so "crap" is a bit harsh.....
You're right Haldi. My humble apologies! After all, you did point out, in your first post, that they are, nevertheless, three very good takeaways that make very fine curries.
I guess it was simply my (rather ignorant) presumption that any BIR that can't produce "the taste" must be "crap".....since it is "the taste" that I'm after..... :P
So, back to the subject matter of this thread then.....the ingredients used by BIRs that produce "the taste"..... 8)
SD/YF...you'll see that Darth has created a new thread for discussing the longevity (or not) of "the taste" here....http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1256.msg10932#msg10932 ;)
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I have had two bases from places with the "taste", and both contain this awesome flavour
Did you see the base sauce spooned out of the saucepan in front of your eyes and are you 100% sure nothing else was added before the take away container was handed to you? When I asked for a sample of base sauce, it was taken out the back, and I'm sure something else was added.
Regards
George
I am positive that it is pure base and it really contains the real curry "secret"