Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: jb on March 30, 2013, 07:18 PM
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Recently I was kindly invited(along with Dave Curryhell) by Natterjack(Chris) to a Sunday afternoon curry lesson in Chris' local restaurant.It was a bit of a journey for Dave and I,but obviously any chance to get behind the scenes in a BIR is a must. The lesson was advertised as 'making curry gravy' but in the end we did this and much more,each of us taking it in turns to cook our dish of choice with the head chef looking over our shoulder.There were a few other people with us,but we naturally occupied the best position in the kitchen to see exactly what was going on;the poor chef and owner was bombarded with our questions!!
There were no real suprises,the chef made the gravy by boiling the usual suspects;onions,carrot,pepper and potato,along with garlic/ginger and some turmeric and salt.He then did the second stage,or 'tarka' as he called it and combined the two.Interestingly he added some whole spices(including ajowan seeds which I haven't seen many recipes use) straight into the gravy.He wasn't worried about them when blending the gravy,his industrial size blitzer soon took care of everything.His garam massala was freshly made,I didn't get a breakdown of quantities but I took a couple of pictures of what he puts in,the smell actually reminded me of the Jalpur garam massala,very fragrent indeed.
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/0734840762b3fab4567372b20066922f.JPG)
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/8375ed846876954556bf7dd1a9236fb1.JPG)
For me the most important thing I saw was the constant use of spiced oil by the chef.Chis actually asked the owner whether the chef used any such oil and the answer was no,only fresh veg oil is used(actually he said the chef used olive oil for health reasons but we all thought this was a bit of a red herring).It was only when the chef started cooking some dishes(there were a few customers in the restaurant) that I noticed him taking a spoonful of some spicy looking oil out of a tin,not only did he take some of this to start the dish but he added some halfway through cooking the actual dishes.We asked him how he made it,it was a bit vague but it seems when he makes his pre cooked chicken he adds oil and spices,after the chicken is cooked the residue is then topped up with oil.Whether this goes into his vegetarian dishes I don't know.I just wonder how many other chefs/owners who claim they only use fresh veg oil actually do use spiced oil in some way,I'm always told by my local favourite restaurant that they only use fresh oil.
We cooked our own dishes and then sat and ate them.We made a bhuna,vindaloo and I made a pathia,all using the gravy that we had made earlier.I have to say they were all very nice indeed!!
Everything seemed to happen so fast while we were there,I managed to get the recipe for his chicken tikka(which I'll post),hopefully we'll be able to get back in there pretty soon.Chris has some footage which he'll hopefully sort and upload.
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Excellent report JB. It's a pitty there isn't more information obtained regarding the oil. I look forward to the tikka recipe :)
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Nice write up JB. :)
Its going to be a very brave chef that admits they cook with used oil. ;)
You only have to watch through the viceroy videos to see that even Ali's chef uses spiced oil.
Not all dishes, but you can clearly see the colour difference in some videos and its NOT a trick of the light. ;)
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A good summary of the trip JB. Hopefully, we'll get back soon to question the chef a little more in depth re. that oil and a few other things we see ;)
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We cooked our own dishes and then sat and ate them.We made a bhuna,vindaloo and I made a pathia,all using the gravy that we had made earlier. I have to say they were all very nice indeed!!
Tell us about the bhuna, JB : this is the one that many of us would love to be able to create.
** Phil.
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Hi JB
What a great opportunity for you, I noted that you didn't mention tomato in the base ingredients. If it doesn't contain tomato, I would be very interested to learn of the recipe for it.
Looking forward to the tikka recipe too.
Cheers,
Malc. :)
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If it doesn't contain tomato, I would be very interested to learn of the recipe for it.
Sorry Axe, but this, in the form of blended plumb tomatoes, went in the tarka and was then added.
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Credit for this rests with Dalpuri as it was he who first spotted that Zaman of Datchet were offering cooking lessons. I have some raw footage which I need to re-order into the correct sequence, will try to do so by Monday. However be aware this is somewhat choppy due to there being up to 12 people in the kitchen and lots happening in parallel, so the recipes are not captured in full.
For anyone wondering why this wasn't mentioned in advance there was in fact a thread last year asking who was interested and JB and Curryhell were the first two to respond. Zaman only offered three places hence JB and CH were the only ones I could invite along.
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Ahhhhhhhhh nice one! I was going to ask if it was that place. ;D
Glad you got in there. :)
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Excellent and thank you for so openly sharing the experience for the benefit of us all.
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So JB was the guy with the notebook and I'm hoping he got some details down, but from my recollection here are some of the distinctive features of the Zaman cuisine:
- Extensive use of spiced oil, starting each main dish
- spiced oil is made by adding extra oil when pre cooking chicken and is spooned off at the end
- they use whole spices in their base, definately white and black cumin and fennel, not sure which others (JB?)
- creamed coconut block is added to their base
- they precook their chicken for around 45 mins and add some of the chicken gravy when adding chunks of chicken. Lamb is precooked around 90 mins to make it tender.
- they start each dish with fine julienne strips of fresh garlic and ginger (not G&G paste)
- their (uncooked) red masala sauce is added to nearly everything,in varying proportions from a tsp full up to nearly a chef's spoon depending on which dish, I thought I had this on video but on reviewing the footage don't have the ingredients, maybe JB does?
- they make frequent use of precooked chopped onions (what chewy has in the past called service onions) which have been fried with spices including mustard seeds
- on tasting their base sauce I found it surprisingly spicey compared to what I'm used to, doubtless due to the whole spices
- they make their pilau rice with milk, topped up with water
- The bhuna cooked by the head chef blew my socks off with the depth of flavour it had! Not hot, but spicey and gorgeous.
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And the head chef's CTM was delicious. I would actually order a portion and enjoy it. It's nothing like the sweet sickly stodge that is traditionally served up and enjoyed by the CTM fans :o . Just as many calories but so much flavour and depth :P
Not sure what JB's notes will reveal about the masala sauce but it contains blended plumb tomatoes, chillis and coriander amongst a couple of other ingredients that escape me ::)
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If it doesn't contain tomato, I would be very interested to learn of the recipe for it.
Sorry Axe, but this, in the form of blended plumb tomatoes, went in the tarka and was then added.
Thanks CH, oh well, no worries, still looking forward to reading about your exploits. :)
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- Extensive use of spiced oil, starting each dish (including the veg curry!)
- spiced oil is made by adding extra oil when pre cooking chicken and is spooned off at the end
- they precook their chicken for around 45 mins and add some of the chicken gravy when adding chunks of chicken. Lamb is precooked around 90 mins to make it tender.
That's exactly how I've been cooking my curries for some time now and it's definitely part of the 'secret'.
- The bhuna cooked by the head chef blew my socks off with the depth of flavour it had! Not hot, but spicey and gorgeous.
I'm really looking forward to the recipe for that - do you have it? :P
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Leading from the front gentlemen - great post!
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Leading from the front gentlemen - great post!
No Question SL, these few guys are blazing a trail. We should try & credit them somehow down the line. Panpot(spiced oil) /Zaal/BB1 have solved this puzzle for me.
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Like I said there was so much going on at once,I wanted to try and accurately record what was going on as well as trying to observe the chef's technique,he did make it look so easy.
A couple of things Natterjack mentioned caught my attention as well.The chef made a lot of use of strips of garlic and ginger to start his dishes,they looked like they were stored in water.He didn't really use much ginger/garlic paste,I guess it's just his way of doing it.
The whole spices he put into the base consisted of black and white cumin,ajowan seeds,fennel,black mustard and cloves.
He cooked a large portion of pilau rice(which was absolutely spot on),he used the usual array of whole spices but he cooked the rice in a mixture of milk and water.The Undercover Curry book mentions this method and I more or less dismissed it but here was an actual BIR chef doing it this way.
The bhuna was of the dishes I wanted to see being cooked.The chef actually cooked one in front of us for a customer and then Chris cooked one with the chef's guidance.I'm afraid to say I can't say there was any special ingredient or technique that went into them,they both certainly had a great depth of flavour(we actually got to taste a few dishes that the chef was cooking for the afternoon's paying customers as well).It was just a case of the usual method/ingredients and a highly skilled chef.However,what I'm certain of now is the fact that the spiced oil thing definitely plays a major part.Not only did he start the dish of with some but I'm sure he added a touch more halfway through cooking.
The chef actually had a pre made massala paste that he used for tikka massala dishes,it looked at lot like the one we made on the Zaal lesson.The other 'massala' sauce was indeed an uncooked tomato based sauce.Quite runny in texture,from memory the chef said it consisted of blended tomatoes,corriander and his home-made garam massala.
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The whole spices he put into the base consisted of black and white cumin,ajowan seeds,fennel,black mustard and cloves.
So the two pictures at the start of the thread, one is the GM and the other is?
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- Extensive use of spiced oil, starting each dish (including the veg curry!)
- spiced oil is made by adding extra oil when pre cooking chicken and is spooned off at the end
- they precook their chicken for around 45 mins and add some of the chicken gravy when adding chunks of chicken. Lamb is precooked around 90 mins to make it tender.
Hi guys and gals, i was on the other site as i am interested in the Glasgow curries, below is the link for the recipe for pre-cooking chicken, i tried this last night and its fantastic, really flavoursome and very tender chicken indeed. I made the glasgow base 3.5kg version to spec and made the glasgow madras. I have found my curry nirvana, true glasgow BIR. Also tried the Glasgow Korma for the kids and the wife said the same. Exactly like our favourite takeaway. Going to save a fortune now lol
http://www.secretcurryrecipes.com/curryforum/showthread.php?7101-Glasgow-pre-cooked-chicken&s=7a5e1bf7c79d9222a621df8192001e6a (http://www.secretcurryrecipes.com/curryforum/showthread.php?7101-Glasgow-pre-cooked-chicken&s=7a5e1bf7c79d9222a621df8192001e6a)
Garry
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The whole spices he put into the base consisted of black and white cumin,ajowan seeds,fennel,black mustard and cloves.
So the two pictures at the start of the thread, one is the GM and the other is?
Both pictures are for the garam massala,can't give you quantities though as he didn't give us any.
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We've already got Glasgow precooked chicken on this forum gazman: http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,11361.msg90994.html#msg90994 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,11361.msg90994.html#msg90994)
It's not my favourite but it's very nice and a darn sight better than no precooking or precooking in just turmeric and water.
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Both pictures are for the garam massala,can't give you quantities though as he didn't give us any.
Right, but is what's on the plates the actual amounts used?
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I do hope that between the three of you you can come up with a recipe for the bhuna. From how it's been described it sounds just like the old style which I describe as very savoury and distinctly different in taste from any other savoury curry. Does that sound about right?
Again, the description of the CTM also sounds like I used to have it and not the oversweet slop that now passes for CTM.
I suppose the stumbling block will be the spiced oil which you didn't get to make.
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I do hope that between the three of you you can come up with a recipe for the bhuna. From how it's been described it sounds just like the old style which I describe as very savoury and distinctly different in taste from any other savoury curry. Does that sound about right?
Again, the description of the CTM also sounds like I used to have it and not the oversweet slop that now passes for CTM.
I suppose the stumbling block will be the spiced oil which you didn't get to make.
This almost begins to describe the recent one I had here in Dublin. The only difference from what I've seen and heard being described in the forum, was that the looks don't really make it compatible (and it had a good bit of sauce and ISTR someone mentioning that your old-style bhuna would generally be on the dried side?)
Any good bhuna recipes so I can try see how the food here differs? I've never been a big fan of bhuna, I only ordered this because I heard so many fans of it around here. :)
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lovely report JB & Natterjack,
was just starting to get fed up (reading through endless pointless argument and 1 upman ship) which is rare but this type of report makes all the difference.
much appreciate the clarification on the mustard. i have it on my mind to add in for a while but could not decide out of the 3 types. black is what i had previously been advised to go for.
the ajowan is very strong and something i've stopped using (ifindforu orig base).
i may just have to force myself to buy some cloves - my mind retains a dislike for them.
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someone mentioning that your old-style bhuna would generally be on the dried side?)
Yes, I can't really relate to that. It's true that traditionally a bhuna will have a thicker sauce (sometimes to the extent of forming a thick coating to the ingredients, rather than a sauce). And I know many have experienced it that way, but when I used to have old style bhuna it was in a similar amount of sauce as any other curry. What was unique for me was its incredibly savoury and different taste to any other curry, the thickness of the sauce just wasn't important to me.
Any good bhuna recipes so I can try see how the food here differs?
Umm, no (in my opinion). I've tried a few but a thick sauce and chunks of onion and pepper, do not a bhuna make.
I've never been a big fan of bhuna
Understandable if you get the type I describe immediately above. I can assure you though, if you'd tasted the real thing it would be in your top two curries, I have no doubt.
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And I know many have experienced it that way, but when I used to have old style bhuna it was in a similar amount of sauce as any other curry.
When i was a kid, (and i've mentioned this before) a prawn puri was Prawn pathia and puri starter. The best tasting curry in the restaurant!
Sometime during the 80's they changed this to a prawn bhuna and puri which really pissed me off.
BUT..... Both dishes had to be dry because they were sitting on top of fried bread.
No BIR is going to put a gravy curry on top of bread, it just aint done!
An old school bhuna AND pathia should be dry, neither should be full of sauce like they are these days.
If you or anyone else has either dish with gravy, then thats the chef trying to stretch the dish to a main course, and it becomes neither one or the other.
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When i was a kid, (and i've mentioned this before) a prawn puri was Prawn pathia and puri starter. The best tasting curry in the restaurant!
Sometime during the 80's they changed this to a prawn bhuna and puri which really pissed me off.
BUT..... Both dishes had to be dry because they were sitting on top of fried bread.
No BIR is going to put a gravy curry on top of bread, it just aint done!
An old school bhuna AND pathia should be dry, neither should be full of sauce like they are these days.
Agreed.
If you or anyone else has either dish with gravy, then thats the chef trying to stretch the dish to a main course, and it becomes neither one or the other.
But there I must respectfully disagree : both a bhuna and a pathia were traditionally served as main courses, not as starters (unless, of course, they were served in/on a puri or similar).
** Phil.
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But there I must respectfully disagree : both a bhuna and a pathia were traditionally served as main courses, not as starters (unless, of course, they were served in/on a puri or similar).
** Phil.
I never saw a Pathia as a main dish when i was a kid Phil. It was always something really special for me and only came as a starter.
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I never saw a Pathia as a main dish when i was a kid Phil. It was always something really special for me and only came as a starter.
In the restaurants that I frequented from the age of 16 onwards (fifty years ago !), starting with the Maharaja of Chislehurst, "pathia" was listed in the Parsee section of the menu under "main courses". This same location was used for Dhansak and for a couple of others (I think : on further reflection, I think that these were just variants of the two, using different main ingredients -- chicken, prawn, king prawn and so on).
** Phil.
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Please don't derail this thread guys.
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- The bhuna cooked by the head chef blew my socks off with the depth of flavour it had! Not hot, but spicey and gorgeous.
I'm really looking forward to the recipe for that - do you have it? :P
We cooked our own dishes and then sat and ate them.We made a bhuna,vindaloo and I made a pathia,all using the gravy that we had made earlier. I have to say they were all very nice indeed!!
Tell us about the bhuna, JB : this is the one that many of us would love to be able to create.
** Phil.
Phil &SS I've just reviewed my footage from the day and I've captured most of the first bhuna the head chef cooked so I'll put it together and post tomorrow.
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The other 'massala' sauce was indeed an uncooked tomato based sauce.Quite runny in texture,from memory the chef said it consisted of blended tomatoes,corriander and his home-made garam massala.
Green chillies also in the uncooked red masala sauce.
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The whole spices he put into the base consisted of black and white cumin,ajowan seeds,fennel,black mustard and cloves.
So the two pictures at the start of the thread, one is the GM and the other is?
Both pictures are for the garam massala,can't give you quantities though as he didn't give us any.
I could be wrong but I thought the other plate was the spices they use in the base gravy.
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Phil &SS I've just reviewed my footage from the day and I've captured most of the first bhuna the head chef cooked so I'll put it together and post tomorrow.
Yaaaay! :P
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The caveat being that it makes use of precooked chopped onions, precooked chunky onions and green peppers, red masala sauce and spiced oil, none of which we have the full recipes for.
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Phil &SS I've just reviewed my footage from the day and I've captured most of the first bhuna the head chef cooked so I'll put it together and post tomorrow.
Thank you, Natterjack !
The caveat being that it makes use of precooked chopped onions, precooked chunky onions and green peppers, red masala sauce and spiced oil, none of which we have the full recipes for.
In this life, one can never have everything ...
** Phil.
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The caveat being that it makes use of precooked chopped onions, precooked chunky onions and green peppers, red masala sauce and spiced oil, none of which we have the full recipes for.
Boooooo! ;D
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The caveat being that it makes use of precooked chopped onions, precooked chunky onions and green peppers, red masala sauce and spiced oil, none of which we have the full recipes for.
Boooooo! ;D
We never said we'd be able to solve the mystery to the 70/80's bhuna in one go, now did we SS? Give us some time and we may just get there ;) (providing we can get back into that kitchen of course ;D )
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King Prawn Bhuna Video:
http://youtu.be/D_H4CDkDq8E (http://youtu.be/D_H4CDkDq8E)
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Nice production there Chris. You're becoming quite a professional ;) I could almost smell and taste that :P
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Interesting video that.
Were both types of onion prepared exactly the same way, or was the onion/pepper mix just that (i.e. without anything added)?
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We didn't see the prep of the onions so there's an element of speculation but from the clearest pic I managed to get (which isn't super clear) I see that both types are the same shade of yellow, both have the dark spots of mustard seeds visible and there seems to be some green pepper in the fine chopped onion, which I didn't notice on the day.
(http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/5758/1364815791874.jpg)
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Yes, it looks like they're essentially the same thing just cut to different sizes. They look like they have turmeric in them too judging by the yellowness, or is that just the camera?
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Yes, it looks like they're essentially the same thing just cut to different sizes. They look like they have turmeric in them too judging by the yellowness, or is that just the camera?
Definately not just the camera. I asked the chef about the precooked onions.
Audio clip: http://audioboo.fm/boos/1301976-indian-onions (http://audioboo.fm/boos/1301976-indian-onions)
He says: "Boil first, then garlic and ginger, fry for about 2-3 mins".
And on the question of the colour: "No turmeric, just mix powder."
He went on to say the black specs I could see were mustard seeds.
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Good vid NJ, King Prawn made more or less the same around here, (No Red Masala) shame you didn't get to eat that one, very nice dish.
Good report, how does it compare with AZ@Zaal and how much did you have to pay?
Curious, How many members buy Tiger Prawn/King Prawn dishes?
cheers Chewy
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We did get to taste that dish (you can just see a sneaky spoon at the end) and I was really pleasantly surprised. I tend to order hotter curries and have dismissed bhunas as "boring" in the past. This one wasn't! Lots of layers of flavour and all beautifully balanced. The work of an expert chef!
Lesson was
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Excellent report back, looks like you all had an informative day.
What's also interesting is they don't use aliminium pans, I'm still not sure if ali pans are safe to use :-\
Cheers,
Ken
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?15 for a 3 hour lesson then the lunch, thats a total bargain, had the same experience up here in the Ashoka in darnley but it was ?25 and no where near as good a lesson that you guys had
well done
Garry
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New vid: pilau rice
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,11784.0.html (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,11784.0.html)
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Recently I was kindly invited(along with Dave Curryhell) by Natterjack(Chris) to a Sunday afternoon curry lesson in Chris' local restaurant.
<snip>
Chris has some footage which he'll hopefully sort and upload.
Ooops, bit slow, but finally JB cooking his Pathia is uploaded here:
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,12525.msg101591.html#msg101591 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,12525.msg101591.html#msg101591)
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;D ;D ;D I'd forgotten about that one Natterjak. Then again pathia is probably at the botom of my to do list ??? That was a good day out. Wouldn't mind repeating the experience if the chance came up :)
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Great footage. Quality hands-on cooking course.
Rob :)