Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: kbmason79 on March 18, 2013, 04:33 PM
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Hello Fellow curry lovers,
If I am correct in my thinking to achieve an authentic BIR curry at home will require you to cook at very high temperatures that can't be reached by normal domestic gas rings.
If this is the case how do other members get around this? would this mean investing in some kind of jet burner and stand? Also where could you buy these from?
Thanks
Barry
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Hello Fellow curry lovers,
If I am correct in my thinking to achieve an authentic BIR curry at home will require you to cook at very high temperatures that can't be reached by normal domestic gas rings.
If this is the case how do other members get around this? would this mean investing in some kind of jet burner and stand? Also where could you buy these from?
Thanks
Barry
This is a debate that has been raging for many years, and will no doubt continue to do so. While it's true that most BIR chefs cook at relatively high temperatures with commercial gas burners, I believe that I am correct in saying that how much this actually contributes to 'that' taste remains a matter of conjecture, rather than fact.
Certainly, among members of this fine forum you'll no doubt find that some folk are fans of industrial blast furnace levels of heat, while others mosey along quite happily at more relaxed temperatures.
For what it's worth, I've tried both standard gas and electric hobs and 7.5kw burners, and while the 7.5kw burner is fantastic fun it doesn't magically create that BIR taste, which IMHO comes from correct cooking technique and knowledge accumulated from experience.
If you're interested in checking a burner out, I recommend this site, where I secured this baby for under
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I'm definitely not convinced high heat is necessary. I have a 4.5kW burner on my domestic hob and if I cook as the restaurants show you on youtube etc., the curry boils away to nothing very rapidly. The burners in the restaurants certainly look powerful but seem to somehow lack heat in comparison to what I'm cooking on.
Anyway, the curries I cook now are no different to curries I've always cooked when using far less powerful burners and consequently I don't give much credence to the high burner makes better curries theory.
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I think the key to cooking on gas at home is to use an aluminium pan to ensure you get correct heat distribution through the pan. I don't use gas I have electric but I find that my curry burns if I use the hob on high. So often reduce to low-med.
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Hello Fellow curry lovers,
If I am correct in my thinking to achieve an authentic BIR curry at home will require you to cook at very high temperatures that can't be reached by normal domestic gas rings.
If this is the case how do other members get around this? would this mean investing in some kind of jet burner and stand? Also where could you buy these from?
Thanks
Barry
As SD and Axe have confirmed. High temeratures are NOT needed mate.
Thorough cooking of powders works wonders. Take your time, ensure powders are cooked through and you'll be all good.
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If I am correct in my thinking to achieve an authentic BIR curry at home will require you to cook at very high temperatures that can't be reached by normal domestic gas rings.
As you can probably see from this thread alone, opinion is somewhat split on this. There are those who believe it's necessary and those who don't. Why two very different opinions?
Simple. Two different sets of taste buds and two different sets of standards.
What is true, is that if you don't understand the correct cooking techniques and use the right ingredients, you won't achieve the right results - high temperature burner or not. So that's the best place to start.
However, for those who can cook with the right technique and right ingredients, the last piece of the jigsaw is in a high heat burner which produces a smokey flavour that cannot be achieved by any other means. That's not supposition on my part (regardless of what others in this thread might say) search the forum for threads on smokey and high heat for proof of this.
The major difference between BIR's and home cooks is the gas flames they cook on and the frequent ignition of the oil vapours coming off the pan. BIR's use the same ingredients home cooks do.
Just look at the gas flames and jets on a typical BIR burner and then look at the same thing on a home burner - they're miles apart and it makes a difference to the final flavour and taste of the dish.
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...High temeratures [sic] are NOT needed mate...
I'm inclined to take Mick's word on this given that he actually runs a successful restaurant.
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However, for those who can cook with the right technique and right ingredients, the last piece of the jigsaw is in a high heat burner which produces a smokey flavour that cannot be achieved by any other means. That's not supposition on my part (regardless of what others in this thread might say) search the forum for threads on smokey and high heat for proof of this.
More nonsense from you Spicey. I've done it all ways and it makes not a jot of difference.
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More nonsense from you Spicey. I've done it all ways and it makes not a jot of difference.
So presumably to reach this conclusion you've read through both these threads by CA and Jerry who have conducted extensive tests on this theory and both came to the same conclusion? You in fact reject both their opinions and call them both liars and full of (moderated):
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,3208.msg30045.html#msg30045 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,3208.msg30045.html#msg30045)
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,1851.0.html (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,1851.0.html)
You have also yourself conducted extensive tests on a home domestic gas burner and a high output burner to the same capacity that both Jerry and CA and myself have used to reach your conclusion, yes?
If so, I'd be very interested to hear that exact details of the tests and experiments you've carried out, the type, make, cost and output Kw of your high output burner, which dishes you cooked, the recipes used for them and the conclusions you independently reached to form your view that I'm talking nonsense.
The absence of which, I shall be forced to conclude that you're simply taking pot shots at easy targets, as per usual and you are, as usual, full of (moderated).
I'll look forward to hearing all the details.
The lack of which, I think it just and fair that anyone else reading through this thread can form their own conclusions based on the links and evidence I've provided.
PS Same applies to Aussie Mick, if he cares to contribute and substantiate his own opinion on this here.
Of you go...
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More /ad hominem/ attacks and use of totally unnecessary terms such as "cr@p". No sooner does the forum shed one member who can neither moderate his temper nor his language than another member steps up to take his place. Is it /really/ impossible for some to conduct their debates without sinking to this level ?
** Phil.
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More /ad hominem/ attacks and use of totally unnecessary terms such as "cr@p".
And referring to someone else's opinion as nonsense is not ad hominem presumably?
If forum users don't want to receive fiery replies, perhaps they might themselves be a little more respectful of others opinions? I'm all for sensible, polite, respectful debate and discussion and I'm perfectly capable of conducting myself in that way.
But when someone wanders along and slings out an off the cuff remark that I'm talking ...more nonsense, I'm not going to respond particularly well. Debate the issues, yes, support your opinions with facts and research, yes, dismiss someones opinion with contempt as nonsense? No, that's not acceptable.
Is why CA left now becoming somewhat more apparent to you Phil?
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More /ad hominem/ attacks and use of totally unnecessary terms such as "cr@p".
And referring to someone else's opinion as nonsense is not ad hominem presumably?
As I quite deliberately did not quote your reply, but replied to the thread in general, it should be clear that the reference to "/ad hominem/ attacks" was equally levied at all concerned; however, the reference to "cr@p" was quite specific.
If forum users don't want to receive fiery replies, perhaps they might themselves be a little more respectful of others opinions? I'm all for sensible, polite, respectful debate and discussion and I'm perfectly capable of conducting myself in that way.
But when someone wanders along and slings out an off the cuff remark that I'm talking ...more nonsense, I'm not going to respond particularly well. Debate the issues, yes, support your opinions with facts and research, yes, dismiss someones opinion with contempt as nonsense? No, that's not acceptable.
I completely agree : yet by responding as you did, you escalate the argument rather than return it to a more detached level.
Is why CA left now becoming somewhat more apparent to you Phil?
I don't personally give a t@ss why he left : I was simply delighted to note that the forum was, for quite a while, significantly more moderate in its tone (and an infinitely more welcoming place to visit) as a direct result. I am just saddened that you now seem to find it necessary to adopt exactly the same style of argument that he latterly adopted. Both of you are capable of far better.
** Phil.
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I am just saddened that you now seem to find it necessary to adopt exactly the same style of argument that he latterly adopted. Both of you are capable of far better.
And that will continue in the same vein as long as people on this forum continue to dismiss my opinions as nonsense.
I am entitled to my opinion, and I will express it regardless of whether people happen to agree with it or not.
That opinion carries no more weight than anyone else's, neither am I saying it is the right opinion, I do however, expect that opinion to be afforded the same respect and courtesy that I afford other peoples opinions whether or not I happen to agree with them.
I would also like to point out that whilst I am like minded to CA, I am not CA we are two entirely different people, I just happen to respect and admire his opinions and ability in cooking this style of food.
It's just a shame that yet another interesting thread has been wrecked and derailed into petty whinging when we should be discussing the merits or otherwise of the topic of the thread.
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Hi
I know this does not answer the high temperature question. Which would basically be get yourself a comercial burner. I note that an old friend of mine comented that early curry houses were just that and the food was cooked on domestic gas stoves.
Regards
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I note that an old friend of mine comented that early curry houses were just that and the food was cooked on domestic gas stoves.
Which is nevertheless an important and interesting point to make.
This lends further belief to the view that old style BIR Indian food did taste and was produced differently to modern style BIR food, which will be of some use to those on the forum who are trying to replicate this old style flavour and taste.
Interesting indeed. This further supports my view that ingredients and techniques of yesteryear were quite different to those used now.
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'You need flames/high temperatures to achieve BIR food at home'
This,along with spiced oil has got to be two of most controversial subjects on this forum since I joined when the forum was launched.Granted there is a lot of footage available of chefs achieving high flames when cooking,but can true BIR food be made without a sheet of fire?
A couple of years ago I managed to get myself into the kitchen of a local take-away where I spent the whole evening observing the chef churning out a multitude of dishes from jalfrezis to bhunas,madras etc.I've had food from there a number of times and I know it's very nice,the point is at no time did he flame the pan,everything was cooked on a sensible heat.If he can do it I know it's perfectly achievable at home on a domestic hob.
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...the point is at no time did he flame the pan,everything was cooked on a sensible heat.If he can do it I know it's perfectly achievable at home on a domestic hob.
How do you define sensible heat?
Have you looked at your average commercial gas burner and counted the number of gas jets on it and then compared that number to the ones on your hottest domestic kitchen gas burner? Commercial burners can be anything from 3, 4, 5, 6 times the heat output of domestic ones.
But this isn't just about temperature extremes, in other words it's not about the very highest heat output a commercial burner can produce over a domestic one, it's about the constant higher heat output a commercial one can produce. In other words, the ability to keep the contents of the pan at constant temperature to keep the contents cooking without cooling. Given the lower heat output of domestic gas burners they struggle even at their maximum settings to maintain a high temperature in the pan when cooler ingredients are added.
It's this that makes the difference, not the extreme temperatures.
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Hi
It's been muted for a while that BIR is not as good as it use to be. Could that correlate to the introduction of comercial practices and kit.
Regards
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My only comment to add to this debate, is that in the many many video's I have watched of BIR kitchens, I have not once seen the burner turned up as high as the picture above. I could be wrong but that is just my observations so far, granted that videos have been of differing quality.
I do however believe that the flambe will change the character of a dish but I don;t think it is going to stop a home cook on a domestic cooker achieving very good results.
If it was practical for me to have a commercial burner, I would. But that hasn;t stopped me producing good results.
Just my opinion of course.
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Just my opinion of course.
And it's a perfectly valid one and raises some good points, that I agree with.
You can cook perfectly acceptable BIR dishes at home on domestic hobs that taste to a large part as if they have come from a BIR takeaway.
However, depending on how discerning you are with regards to your perception of flavour and taste they can lack that final n% that you get with BIR food. Many have described this as the final component in the BIR jigsaw that home cooked dishes lack and it's this smokey almost unami flavour and taste that they lack.
Some of us have conducted experiments on high output gas burners to try and achieve this final n% smokey flavour and the general concensus is that you can achieve it with a high output gas burner as used in the majority of BIR kitchens. CA and Jerry have documented this in the links I provided earlier.
But I just want to reiterate this point. You don't need high output gas burners to produce perfectly acceptable BIR food, you do if you want to achieve the full range of flavours achieved in BIR restaurants.
It all comes down to how discerning you are and whether you can taste that smokey flavour and how important it is for you to achieve it in your own dishes.
The photograph I included was an example to show just how many gas jets a typical high output gas burner has compared to a conventional domestic gas hob jet. I'm not suggesting that all BIR's use that particular type or at that heat level.
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It's been muted for a while that BIR is not as good as it use to be. Could that correlate to the introduction of comercial practices and kit.
It's an interesting thought and subject.
In my own personal opinion, as I've posted elsewhere on the forum, I rather suspect it's down to commercial BIR expediency in terms of streamlining their processes to make it quicker and easier to produce a wide range of dishes from a suite of ingredients that are simple and easy to produce.
It's about minimising inputs and maximising outputs.
Earlier, older style Indian Restaurants seem more of a fusion of traditional methods adapted for a modern commercial kitchen environment producing traditional dishes modified for the British taste. So they hadn't fully left their traditional roots in terms of ingredients, methods and cooking techniques but had started a transformation from traditional to modern methods.
This is purely supposition on my behalf based on my own experience and snippets gleaned from here and there.
I'm currently reading through many of my older traditional Indian cookbooks to try and understand how traditional recipes were constructed and with what ingredients and how these recipes could have been adapted for production in a more modern commercial kitchen environment.
That might give me some clues as to how to recreate these 30-40 year old, old school dishes as I feel I've pretty much gone as far as I want to with regards to modern BIR cooking and dishes. Like a restaurant, all I seem to be doing is creating similar tasting dishes with minimal variation because the base sauce and mix powder is dominating the underlying flavour. They may look different but they don't taste that different!
I want to get back to quite significant taste changes between dishes but without necessarily departing too far from the current modern methods.
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Hi
I know this does not answer the high temperature question. Which would basically be get yourself a comercial burner. I note that an old friend of mine comented that early curry houses were just that and the food was cooked on domestic gas stoves.
Regards
I'd say the best curries i ever tasted were cooked on domestic gas stoves. Late 80's/early 90's Armadale Rd takeaway, Dukinfield, Manchester, and Scotland Hall Rd, Newton heath,Mmanchester.
Domestic cookers, aluminium frying pans, fresh oil. Food of the gods.
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That might give me some clues as to how to recreate these 30-40 year old, old school dishes as I feel I've pretty much gone as far as I want to with regards to modern BIR cooking and dishes. Like a restaurant, all I seem to be doing is creating similar tasting dishes with minimal variation because the base sauce and mix powder is dominating the underlying flavour. They may look different but they don't taste that different!
I want to get back to quite significant taste changes between dishes but without necessarily departing too far from the current modern methods.
Were they that different though? I sometimes think its us and our tastebuds that have changed. For example I drink red wine now which in the 70/80's thought tasted disgusting. Fresh coriander for some reason used to sometimes really over power a dish for me, now its essential. The Korma and Madras I remember from my early days seem very similar to the ones now. In the old days it was Meat and Dark Meat Chicken (Breast of Chicken - extra). The dark chicken meat for me changes the flavour slightly. My first local TA was great and he use to tell us to knock him up in the early hours of Saturday morning if we wanted food on the way home from the nightclubs. He would still produce dishes very quickly so have the techniques changed that much. Are we chasing the Golden Fleece?
Just my thoughts on the issue.
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Intrigued by this recurring use of "dark meat"; first Axe (I think) and now Gav (via others). I always thought that "dark meat" was the sole perquisite of prissy Americans and/or a hangover from the Victorian era. Do people really use "dark meat" rather than "leg", "thigh" or whatever ?
** Phil.
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Do people really use "dark meat" rather than "leg", "thigh" or whatever ?
Hmm...I see a definition coming of what dark meat is.
I've always considered anything that isn't breast, to be dark meat, although technically you could argue that thigh isn't. Leg is definitely dark meat. But that's essentially my definition, if it isn't breast it's dark.
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Intrigued by this recurring use of "dark meat"; first Axe (I think) and now Gav (via others). I always thought that "dark meat" was the sole perquisite of prissy Americans and/or a hangover from the Victorian era. Do people really use "dark meat" rather than "leg", "thigh" or whatever ?
** Phil.
'Dark Meat' :) is quicker to type than 'leg and thigh meat' and I'm sure you know but as Wikipedia puts it
'Dark meat, which avian myologists refer to as "red muscle," is used for sustained activity
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Hmm...I see a definition coming of what dark meat is.
I've always considered anything that isn't breast, to be dark meat, although technically you could argue that thigh isn't. Leg is definitely dark meat.
You're correct. You posted whilst I was posting. And is thigh not part of the leg along with the drumstick?
I'm the same as you though, if its not breast, its dark usually when sorting the turkey out at christmas though. :)
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I'm the same as you though, if its not breast, its dark.
unless they are wings.....which are white :)
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unless they are wings.....which are white :)
I sit corrected. :-\
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And is thigh not part of the leg along with the drumstick?
It is, but in terms of colour it's kind of beige! A half way house between the dark of leg and the white of breast, but as I said, if it aint breast it's dark!
Personally I prefer thigh to breast, specially if it's on the bone as I find breast can be too dry sometimes.
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Personally I prefer thigh to breast, specially if it's on the bone as I find breast can be too dry sometimes.
Can't argue there and I that applies for me for most dishes, Indian or otherwise.
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Intrigued by this recurring use of "dark meat"; first Axe (I think) and now Gav (via others). I always thought that "dark meat" was the sole perquisite of prissy Americans and/or a hangover from the Victorian era. Do people really use "dark meat" rather than "leg", "thigh" or whatever ?
** Phil.
My reference to dark was purely as I couldn't tell if it was drum or thigh, as it was already pulled from the carcass the day before. Otherwise I would refer to dark as being drum, thigh or leg. On the COFIDS spreadsheet commissioned by the FSA, chicken meat is referred to as white or dark.
I much prefer the dark meat to white, it has much better flavour, the best bit for me is the oyster. :)
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My reference to dark was purely as I couldn't tell if it was drum or thigh, as it was already pulled from the carcass the day before. Otherwise I would refer to dark as being drum, thigh or leg. On the COFIDS spreadsheet commissioned by the FSA, chicken meat is referred to as white or dark. I much prefer the dark meat to white, it has much better flavour, the best bit for me is the oyster. :)
I was just intrigued by the choice of language, given that I have always thought of "light and dark meat" as being classic Victorian euphemisms for "breast" and "leg" respectively. Indeed, Anderson & Taylor [1] report that "Queen Victoria coined the phrases 'light' and 'dark meat' for chicken and other fowl because she thought mentions of the words 'breast' and 'leg' would cause men to be overcome by lust ...". I also recall reading an exchange that allegedly took place at a Southern States dinner party where a guest was asked if she would like breast or leg : "Damn your impertinence, Sir", she is said to have responded "I'll have a little of the dark meat, if I may ?".
As regards preferences : for me, breast in a classic curry (Madras, whatever); ambivalent about Tandoori Chicken; chopped drumsticks (chopped through the bone) for Chicken with Oyster Sauce and Chinese Mushrooms, boned thigh for Chicken with Chillia & Bloack Bean Sauce, breast from a carved bird.
** Phil.
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[1] Andersen, Margaret L. & Taylor, Howard Francis : Sociology With Infotrac: Understanding a Diverse Society, Wadsworth Publishing Co Inc, April 2005.
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"Queen Victoria coined the phrases 'light' and 'dark meat' for chicken and other fowl because she thought mentions of the words 'breast' and 'leg' would cause men to be overcome by lust ...".
And how right she was! :P
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i get a massive difference cooking at high heat. my burner is ~9kw but i don't feel you need quite as much heat - something like 7.5kw would be the min.
for me you can't use it in the kitchen - it has to be in a shed or for myself in a garage.
the pan also makes a difference. i've not tried ali and have black steel. i also think the flame is important. it can't just be a blue bunsen burner rocket flame - it needs to wrap around the pan.
the base also needs to be right ie thin.
there are quite a lot of posts to search on. a pic of my flame is there too.
for anyone serious about BIR don't be fooled by the conjecture - for a few quid for a stove is it really worth agonizing over.
i have to load up a tray and carry it 30 steps round the house - i can tell you i would not do this if i could get the same on my 4kw domestic gas hob.
in short if you smell that BIR smell in the high street and your not getting it at home then you're not getting BIR taste. yes you can get a very good curry on a hob but once you've tasted the difference you will never go back.
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Although I haven't tried the 9kW burner Jerry I still don't agree for two main reasons.
First, most BIRs are not cooking on 9kW burners.
Second if, as I stated earlier, I cook on my 4.5kW burner and in the same style as I've seen it done dozens of times on videos from BIRs, the curry is boiled away to nothing in far too rapid a time. I see chefs cooking curries for 7 minutes and more. If I tried this I'd have a pan of curry paste left.
Now I don't dispute that cooking on a 9kW burner may impart something extra to the dish (but only if it's burning the aerosolised oil/water mix - again something most BIR chefs are not doing, except by accident or for show), however I do dispute that that is anything to do with the BIR flavour - it's just a pleasant (so you say) added extra.
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First, most BIRs are not cooking on 9kW burners.
Interesting that when I say it, it's ...nonsense, yet when Jerry says the same thing it's, you don't agree. ???
So what Kw burners are they cooking on then and have you been round every one to check?
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First, most BIRs are not cooking on 9kW burners.
Interesting that when I say it, it's ...nonsense, yet when Jerry says the same thing it's, you don't agree. ???
Yes, but you're a smart-arsed git, and Jerry's not. ;)
So what Kw burners are they cooking on then and have you been round every one to check?
I'm judging purely by the few I've seen in BIR kitchens myself and the innumerable ones I've seen on Youtube videos etc. It's fairly easy to tell that most aren't all that much more powerful than my domestic 4.5kW and the ones that are are rarely used at full power.
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hi guys i believe haldi is the only to answer this question as, now imay be wrong but, he bought an ex BIR burner for 150gbp a few years ago! here http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2894.0.html (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2894.0.html)
regards
gary :)
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It's fairly easy to tell that most aren't all that much more powerful than my domestic 4.5kW and the ones that are are rarely used at full power.
And as I've said repeatedly in this thread, it's not about full power heat output, but constant heat.
The only major difference between what we do at home and what happens in a commercial BIR kitchen is the heat output of the burners. CA, Jerry, myself, Haldi have all done experiments on high output burners and we're all saying it makes a difference, that can't be discounted as being wrong, even though in your opinion it may not be the answer for you.
That may also not be the answer for a lot of people, which is rational given that not everyone is at the same level of ability. What I think is missing in my dishes may not be the same as what you think is missing and so on. There's no one size fit's all answer here for everyone. What works for one person may well not work for someone else.
This is an issue that seems to be cropping up a lot on here at the moment, the assumption is of course that everyone is at the same ability level, an assumption that in my opinion is clearly not correct.
And to just throw another observation into the mix to complicate things even more (which also goes to explain a number of opinions on this issue) is that not all BIR style dishes respond as well to being cooked on high output burners as others might.
I've found a Dhansask and Korma eg cook perfectly well on a domestic burner as a high output one whereas a Bhuna and Madras don't. Quite why that might be, I have no idea, but that's what I've found.
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i'm perfectly happy for Secret Santa or any member to feel that high heat makes no difference.
all i can do is make people aware of the alternative view.
i even see 2 off different taste using high heat - the high heat taste and the smokey taste. i am pretty sure i am burning the aerosolised oil/water mix that secret santa refers to. i also see a lot of caramelisation which curry2go refers to as roasting.
it really is down to the persons needs - if you've tried everything else and still not happy with your cooking then give high heat a try. don't expect to pick up the pan and cook straight away the perfect curry - it took me 3 months to get use to the high heat.
i doubt it's much help to those who don't believe but i have 4 kw gas on my domestic hob and really would use it if there was not such a huge difference between the 2 heats.
i feel in short if you don't judge BIR on the smell in the high street then you don't need high heat.
REV2: realized i only have 3kw not 4kw on my domestic hod.
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I was trying to search the web for answers on how powerful a typical BIR burner would be. This proved to be quite a challenge especially searching on Chester 8 burner which is the old skool preferred range and oven setup.
I managed to find just reference to a modern equivalent and was surprised to learn that the burners were only 4.5 Kw. I'm not sure that this counts as conclusive of course, so I have asked someone I know in the commercial kitchen equipment trade, to see if he can find out.
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i'm perfectly happy for Secret Santa or any member to feel that high heat makes no difference.
Did I say that? If I did (can't be bothered to read back) I retract it. What I mean is that the difference it makes (if any) is not what I am looking for to make the (my) true BIR flavour. Smokiness is not BIR, it's just an added extra.
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I was trying to search the web for answers on how powerful a typical BIR burner would be. This proved to be quite a challenge especially searching on Chester 8 burner which is the old skool preferred range and oven setup.
I managed to find just reference to a modern equivalent and was surprised to learn that the burners were only 4.5 Kw. I'm not sure that this counts as conclusive of course, so I have asked someone I know in the commercial kitchen equipment trade, to see if he can find out.
I just did a quick survey of the available modern commercial ranges Axe and many are 4.5kW (same as my domestic hob) but some go to 6kW. Still quite a stretch from the 9kW that Jerry and others claim is absolutely necessary.
I think what confuses some is that if you watch a video of the burners being used in a BIR the burner size (diameter) is relatively large so you get flame licking up the side of the pan and creating the false impression of having more power than is actually there.
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You don't need a high heat burner, to achieve bir! just time, the right recipes, and techniques. ;) high heat is for speed and only speed.
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You don't need a high heat burner, to achieve bir! just time, the right recipes, and techniques. ;) high heat is for speed and only speed.
My sentiments exactly.
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i get a massive difference cooking at high heat. my burner is ~9kw but i don't feel you need quite as much heat - something like 7.5kw would be the min.
(http://i.imgur.com/6S5AIy0l.jpg)
Is this you cooking a curry JerryM? ;D
I think the high heat isn't the most important, but continuous and well distributed distributed is wherein lies the secret. I'm sure the highest the output, the easier you get to it
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I just did a quick survey of the available modern commercial ranges Axe and many are 4.5kW (same as my domestic hob) but some go to 6kW.
burner size (diameter) is relatively large so you get flame licking up the side of the pan and creating the false impression of having more power than is actually there.
That's interesting though I am not surprised by the higher output, it would depend on what the range is designed for. Definitely with you on the second point, and refer back to my comments on video quality too.
There is probably a place for an onslaught of heat to start but once the initial 'frying' has been done and the wet ingredients added i.e. puree, base etc. high heat then becomes ones enemy, or at least that's the way I have always seen it.
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Ok, Here's a question or three.
How long does everyone cook their curries for?
Have you timed yourself?
That last video Chris just posted was 8.27 and that looked like a pretty high heat going the full length of the cooking time. Lets say 8 mins?
That burner was a LOT hotter than any domestic hob and yet he hardly moved the pan in that time.
So are you cooking your curries for longer to compensate or is everyone cooking in the same amount of time as a pro chef on your domestic flame?
:)
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Ok, Here's a question or three.
How long does everyone cook their curries for?
Have you timed yourself?
That last video Chris just posted was 8.27 and that looked like a pretty high heat going the full length of the cooking time. Lets say 8 mins?
That burner was a LOT hotter than any domestic hob and yet he hardly moved the pan in that time.
So are you cooking your curries for longer to compensate or is everyone cooking in the same amount of time as a pro chef on your domestic flame?
:)
Based on a jalfrezi that I cooked and video'd, I take somewhere about 13-15 minutes on average.
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Ok, Here's a question or three.
How long does everyone cook their curries for?
Have you timed yourself?
That last video Chris just posted was 8.27 and that looked like a pretty high heat going the full length of the cooking time. Lets say 8 mins?
That burner was a LOT hotter than any domestic hob and yet he hardly moved the pan in that time.
So are you cooking your curries for longer to compensate or is everyone cooking in the same amount of time as a pro chef on your domestic flame?
:)
It's not the heat that you have, its how you use it.
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It is a very good question Frank, could it be his style of cooking or just this dish in question? So far both the vid's Chris has posted, the Chef adds water, perhaps that's how he can afford to keep a heat going. The honest answer is I don't know, made more confusing by the fact I currently cook on electric.
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It is a very good question Frank, could it be his style of cooking or just this dish in question? So far both the vid's Chris has posted, the Chef adds water, perhaps that's how he can afford to keep a heat going. The honest answer is I don't know, made more confusing by the fact I currently cook on electric.
Me too, I hate it! >:(
Roll on the Spring so i can get back outside with my wok burner. ;)
If you were to make this dish at home, would you cook at full heat and for twice as long? :)
Based on a jalfrezi that I cooked and video'd, I take somewhere about 13-15 minutes on average.
Did you cook at full heat for all that time Goncalo?
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It depends on the dish, and the cooking technique, but I usually take my (approx.) 15-20 mins to cook a curry (open flame). I'm not cooking BIR-style, but by using a base, you would already save some time. I'm using a pressure cooker quite often, and classic potato curries like "Aloo Mattar" are done in 10 Mins max. (without the preparation) Other dishes, mostly Dal recipes, have to simmer quite a while, at least for my taste, regarding flavour and texture.
Greetings!
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Thats good to hear that maybe people are cooking for twice as long at home.
Because i think a lot of people arent cooking their curries hard enough.
Really happy to hear someone on this forum cooking mains with a pressure cooker. 8)
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Don't want to miss it (:
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If you can cook, you can cook a curry on any heat source, but if your going to cook a 100 in 4hrs you need high output (btu/hr) burners. a simple fact.
I'll do a saucy curry like Madras, Vindaloo (which need high heat) in 6 or 7 Minutes and more complicated dishes on average 10 to 12 mins. thats cooking on a basic domestic gas hob burner of only 3kw.
SS is lucky to have a 4.5kw burner, on most domestic hobs you buy today, the biggist burner will be around 3kw, lots of them are less.
You just have to adapt your cooking technique to suit what you have at hand.
Saying that, It was a big difference for me, moving from a 5+kw down to a 3kw in my Dad's new kitchen, at first I had to check if it was even on.
All my video recipes are cooked on the same 3kw, in real time, and are genuine BIR at home.
But I'd much prefer to be using the 5kw in my own kitchen, because of the extra Btu power and control.
Some stats: approx
3kw burner rating (11.000 Btu/hr) output
4.5kw burner rating (16.000 Btu/hr) output
8.5kw burner rating (29.000 Btu/hr) output (open burner) BIR Kitchens
10kw burner rating (35.000 Btu/hr) output (open burner) BIR Kitchens
22kw burner rating (78.000 Btu/hr) output (open burner) Chinese Kitchens
N.B. Some BIR and Chinese burners are over 100,000 Btu/hr
The other point is the control of the heat, some people are saying you need constant heat, I don't quite get this, apart from the obvious.
It's more like you are constantly working and controlling the heat as you cook the dish.
High, Low, Medium, your in control, like changing gear as you drive your car.
I'm just glad I haven't had to adapt to cooking on electric or induction/magnetic
but I dare say I would manage.
cheers Chewy ;)
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Some very interesting stats there Mike, thanks for posting.
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Did you cook at full heat for all that time Goncalo?
I'd say I've crossed between high-medium to low-medium, but can't be precise as to which I did spend most of the time. I'm making a new base tonight and will pay attention and experiment with this for sure!
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I'll do a saucy curry like Madras, Vindaloo (which need high heat) in 6 or 7 Minutes thats cooking on a basic domestic gas hob burner of only 3kw.
This statement doesnt sit right with me.
If you can cook a basic curry in the same amount of time as a BIR chef on your 3kw, then why would a BIR kitchen need high output burners to cook the same curry in the same amount of time?
Or would you say, that basic curries cooked in a BIR kitchen only take 3 or 4 mins?
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To compensate for the lack of power, I cook my Madras on high from the get go, my ally pan is very hot, the oil is very hot before I begin
and I'll use a lid at the end to get even more heat into a it. as in my the real time video recipe.
Yes, some curries are cooked in 3-4 minutes, especially if it's just sauce and precooked meat.
All your doing is a quick tarka in hot oil, adding the meat then adding the already warmed garabi
mixing and heating through.
cheers Chewy
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and I'll use a lid at the end to get even more heat into a it.
Yes, some curries are cooked in 3-4 minutes, especially if it's just sauce and precooked meat.
Thanks Chewy, A lid is a must at home to increase the heat, glad to hear you use one. ;)
And 3-4 mins makes much more sense if the pro kitchens have twice as much power, although none of the videos are this short.
Its an odd one. :)
I still believe that most people struggling for depth aren't cooking their curries hard enough.
The next time someone makes a curry, stick a lid on and see if you notice a more intense flavour. ;)
Or better still, cook a main dish curry in a pressure cooker, not just your base.
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The other point is the control of the heat, some people are saying you need constant heat, I don't quite get this, apart from the obvious.
Given that I've mentioned this a couple of times in this thread, allow me to clarify what I mean by constant heat.
The lower the output of your burner, the lower the heat will be. When adding cold ingredients the temperature will drop in the pan and the lower the heat source the longer it will take for the pan contents to return to the original temperature. The higher the output of your burner, the higher the heat and the shorter the time it will take for the contents of the pan to come back to the original temperature.
Thus, by having higher output burners, and therefore higher heat output the less temperature drops the pan will suffer when adding cold ingredients therefore producing a more constant cooking temperature.
That's what I mean by constant heat.
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Have been told that I'm using a 7kw (ca.) hotplate/hob. If I'd use maximum heat all the time, whole spices would burn literally within seconds. I use medium heat.
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Have been told that I'm using a 7kw (ca.) hotplate/hob. If I'd use maximum heat all the time, whole spices would burn literally within seconds. I use medium heat.
But thats only when you start the dish, not throughout cooking. Adding onions etc is what stops whole spices from burning.
And a lot of people on here aren't cooking in a traditional way like yourself, which is a shame. :(
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Yes, meant that (:
Powdered spices can be dissolved in little water, too. But back in the days, when I started out, and used our equipment for the first time (and didn't know anything about the pretty high heat, or about the hints and tricks to avoid burning), it ruined my tadka completely ;D
Will post some recipes and photos soon, so maybe some of them will try it out sometime (:
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If you can cook, you can cook a curry on any heat source, but if your going to cook a 100 in 4hrs you need high output (btu/hr) burners. a simple fact.
... Common sense is priceless CT ;)
Sadly I find this such an interesting argument ???
I think we need a Heston Blumenthal to explain the science behind all this. I don't see why we shouldn't get an intense flavour from a lower flame cooked over a longer period, we are only talking about an extra 5 minutes or so ???
Even on a bog standard domestic hob you will get flames, ... if you really want flames ::)
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and is anyone sure if
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DalPuri educating the curry-recipes community since October 27, 2011, 01:00:16 AM.
That was a very good read DP!
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DalPuri educating the curry-recipes community since October 27, 2011, 01:00:16 AM.
I think you'll be alone with that view Goncalo ;D
But thanks anyway. :)
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DalPuri educating the curry-recipes community since October 27, 2011, 01:00:16 AM.
That was a very good read DP!
I think you'll be alone with that view Goncalo ;D
But thanks anyway. :)
In fairness, you keep "spamming" us with good content, be it videos or links, so I'm sure I'm not alone ;-)
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goncalo's pic of the welding got me thinking that further detail may help understanding better.
i see 3 stages of cooking a curry: oil, spice and evap. the end point of oil and spice stages taste exactly the same for me on my domestic hob and the high heat stove ie no high heat is needed in fact it's very easy to burn things during this part of the cooking.
the high heat for me is in the 3rd stage of evaporation. there are the 2 tastes that can be produced: a plain hot fry or the smokey hot fry.
i've never really been able to work out the why (it works). i think it is something to do with the internal surface temperature of the pan particularly around the rim. theory says that with so much water "thin base" about the contents of the pan can never exceed 100C (because the water is being converted into steam and all the heat is consumed doing this). gut feeling says that the surface temp on the high high is a lot higher than 100C - it's hot enough to combust oil whatever that value is. this very high temp changes the taste somehow of the water/oil/onion combination. i don't think the spices have anything to do with the taste difference.
it's not just at home where i've experienced this difference. at my local TA you can tell when the chef is working and when his stand in is there - even in a BIR the difference is stark.
my pan base is 7.5 inch. i think if you had a 2.5" pan you could achieve the same effect on a domestic hob. a guess a teaspoon would be the equivalent of a chef spoon.
i will try and take some temp reading this weekend.
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i cooked 3 off kashmiri and 1 off butter chicken last night ie cream dishes.
the temp was pretty consistent:
underneath the stove with pan on: 300 to 340C
Pan rim outside: 200-220C
Pan rim inside: 185C
Pan base inside 126C
i googled propane gas flame temp and seems quite incredible at 2000C.
the temp i can relate to is the pan rim inside at 185C - my chip fryer cooks at 190C
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i googled propane gas flame temp and seems quite incredible at 2000C.
Jogging my memory, that's at the tip and is also a maximum. The heat is then dissipated into what its heating ie the pan. Bearing in mind that aluminium has a melting point of 660
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i googled propane gas flame temp and seems quite incredible at 2000C.
That's what's known as the adiabatic temperature Jerry. It represents a purely theoretical maximum that's unachievable in any practical situation.
On our hobs or wok burners the pan generally sits well above the actual hottest part of the flame so the temperature at the pan surface is considerably less. As Gav Iscon pointed out, your pan would be a puddle of aluminium if this were not the case.
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...... adiabatic .......
That's the word I was looking for.
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it really is very typical of this forum - to focus in on what's not important.
stuff the temp of the flame. what's important is the pan rim temp inside at 185C. i probably get a tad more sometimes say a max of 220C.
what this is saying is that if your pan rim temp is anything like (irrespective of your Kw) then you will see the same effect as i do.
for those who don't believe in the high heat let's have your temp's on the table so to speak. i'm well happy to try out a lower rim temp.
for additional info - i know my domestic 3kw hob has rocket heat. i use the serious eats 2 stage method of cooking steak. the final stage being rocket heat. yesterday i was cooking bacon and took a few readings - the pan easily gets to 200C and a saw a max of 260C.
this is the rub though - i always delgaze if not to use but to ease the washing up. take a temp reading - you won't see anything like 200C - the penny might just start to drop of the stark difference that we are trying to explore.
i also really can't understand why we are still procrastinating over this - yesterday i was searching for recipe (dopiaza - had really good one at restaurant in the week) and watched quite a few BIR video. none are cooking on domestic heat.
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Thanks for continuing the pursuit JerryM!
I have one question, how are you getting these measurements? If I can replicate them, I would like to give it a try.
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Hi Jerry, i'm new to this site, but totally agree you need that seathing heat at certain stages. when reducing just added cold base the pan temp drops and i beleive it stews ratter than fries, hence the lack of richness in flavour, we're only talking a taste loss of possibly 10%, but i believe that is the difference. Rgds John.
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it really is very typical of this forum - to focus in on what's not important.
stuff the temp of the flame.
Now, now Jerry. It was you who brought it up! ::)
for those who don't believe in the high heat let's have your temp's on the table so to speak. I'm well happy to try out a lower rim temp.
No real need to do that Jerry. I can flame a pan on a 1kW burner by using a small pan and small quantities of liquid. I don't need to do that though because I have a 4.5kW burner and can flame any BIR style pan. And it makes no substantial difference to the taste.
I've stated before that if I cook in exactly the same manner as a BIR I rapidly attain an overly thick sauce. To counter this I either cook at a lower heat or, because I prefer to cook at full heat throughout, I usually water the base down to compensate.
I believe you are wrong in saying that a huge burner is required to achieve BIR and I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on that. What I will say though is that your adding of cold, unheated base to your pan makes a mockery of your claims for needing high heat. Or is it for exactly that reason that you need high heat.
I suppose, in conclusion, what I'm saying is that the BIR flavour has little to do with huge burner power levels. It's a combination of ingredients and techniques and the flaming of the pan or constant high heat is not, per se, the BIR secret.
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what this is saying is that if your pan rim temp is anything like (irrespective of your Kw) then you will see the same effect as i do.
I respectfully disagree. It is (IMHO) very important to differentiate between heat and temperature. Heat is a measure of energy; temperature is a measure of the average speed of motion of the molecules making up the object of interest. If you have achieved a rim temperature of between 185oC and 220oC and you add anything to that pan, then if the temperature of what you add is lower than 185oC and 220oC, the temperature of the pan (and of its contents) will drop. The speed with which it regains its former temperature is a function of the thermal inertia of your pan (which also affects the speed at which the temperature drops), the thermal inertia of the contents (-- ditto --) and the heat output of your burner. Note : the heat output, not the temperature (so long as the latter is sufficiently high). The higher the heat output of the burner, the faster your pan and contents will regain their former (and desired) temperature. To clarify this, imagine transferring your pan from your burner to the hottest part of an oxy-acetylene flame : a far far higher temperature than your standard (or propane) gas burner can achieve, yet the pan will never regain its former temperature (it may melt, at the point of contact twixt flame and pan) but the pan and its contents will slowly cool. Now imagine transferring that same pan from your burner to a vast vat of molten tin ("vast" meaning at least 100 times the volume of your pan) : the molten tin will be at about 230oC, and your pan will not only not cool, it will actually increase in temperature until it is at the same temperature as the molten tin. The oxy-acetylene flame is at a temperature of about 3000oC, yet the pan cools; the tin at a temperature of only 230oC, yet the pan gets hotter. Heat (energy), not temperature, is what makes the difference.
** Phil.
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I find it quite odd that people are digging at Jerry when he is our very own Heston. 8)
The only person on here that is really making progress by experimentation.
Giving all the facts and figures, side by sides, test after test after test.
I trust him implicitly.
Funny how when i posted about wok hei, it all went quiet ::) ;D
Theres going to be no information out there for flaming a pan in a BIR, because any info on the subject is going to be right here on this forum!
The principle is exactly the same, the proof is out there amongst the Chinese forums and blogs.
Its got Nothing to do with showing off. Its a fact that it adds great flavour to a dish and lifts it to another level.
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DP/Jerry, this seems to have flipped into Wok cooking again.
Jerry are you still cooking curries in a Wok with cold base?
Tip: Get yourself a 303 Ally omelette pan and preheat your base
Your curries will transform. Cooked on your 3kw or your Garage burner. No brainer / No debate.
cheers Chewy
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Chewy, There is no doubt that you, I, or the vast majority on this forum cant make Great curries.
Forget the wok reference if you like, the same methods are used in all types of restaurant cuisine. I used that reference because that was the best i could find on the subject. Too many naive assumptions out there attributing flames to alcohol. ::)
But there is NO denying that flaming the pan adds extra flavour.
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But there is NO denying that flaming the pan adds extra flavour.
Agreed.
And for many, that's exactly the flavour that's missing from their home cooked dishes.
I've always described it as a smokey flavour and I think I said right at the beginning of when I joined this site, that this was the flavour that was missing from my dishes.
What's fairly apparent I think (if only to me and a few others) is that all of us here are at different levels of achievement in our curry journey. What might be the missing piece of the jigsaw for me, might not be the same for someone else. That's probably why some of us feel that high heat and flaming pans is the final answer in achieving full BIR style flavours whilst others may not.
This is why I think it's wrong for people say well, this isn't the answer. Well it may not be for them, that's not to say it isn't for someone else.
What's factually true and accurate, is that without being able to actually taste the dishes others produce it's virtually (pun intended) impossible to say what might be missing from them.
We're all at different levels of ability, we all have different taste buds, this is why we get so many different and varying opinions on here on a wide variety of issues.