Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: Cory Ander on February 12, 2013, 09:29 AM
-
I personally would like to better understand the science behind this (i.e. the what is happening and why?).
Why does the oil "separate" from the oil/water/spice mix in a curry when you fry it? What does it mean or infer?
Why does the oil "separate" from the oil/water/spice/onion/tomato/etc mix when you make a curry base? What does it mean and what does it infer?
It seems to me that Spicey has made a good attempt at explaining it:
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,11568.msg89624.html#msg89624 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,11568.msg89624.html#msg89624)
It also seems to me that nobody else has offered an alternative or better or plausible explanation (yet).
-
You're being a trifle rude and ignorant now guys
.
Pot calling the kettle black! Absolute classic
That's your problem, SS, and it always has been. All too ready to cause a stink but never able to provide anything of substance to the forum.
Prove me wrong; why do you think that the oil "separates" and what does it infer?
-
Have you created this topic just to maintain an argument CA?
It's going to be pretty one sided if the only posts are coming from you.
Can't we all please stop this point scoring please, it's doing nothing creative for the forum. :-\
-
CA you have started a perfectly reasonable thread following on from the 'conversations' of last night. Now whilst I personally do not care why the oil separates (as long as the curry tastes good ;)) I do not understand why you have then taken the time to write a second post that will do nothing but start another few pages of meaningless argument. I thought that was exactly what you were trying to get away from and what I am sure many people are sick and tired of seeing.
-
Have you created this topic just to maintain an argument CA?
It's going to be pretty one sided if the only posts are coming from you.
Can't we all please stop this point scoring please, it's doing nothing creative for the forum. :-\
Sorry, posted at same time. ;) well split second later. ;)
-
Have you created this topic just to maintain an argument CA?
Very short sighted of you Axe. I started it because:
a) It truly interests me (I think it is crucial to cooking curries)
b) To move it from MYN's thread where it clearly doesn't belong (and which others have rightly suggested)
It's going to be pretty one sided if the only posts are coming from you
I'm hoping that other members have sufficient interest in cooking curries and a desire to understand such things to also contribute to this topic.
Can't we all please stop this point scoring please, it's doing nothing creative for the forum. :-\
Then stop seeing it as "bickering" (an emotive word...bound to cause angst) and start seeing it as gaining an understanding on what we do, why we do it, and what it actually means.
-
I do not understand why you have then taken the time to write a second post that will do nothing but start another few pages of meaningless argument
The problem, in part, as I see it, is that members such as yourself don't see the value in gaining an understanding of such things.
The only reason it will "do nothing but start another few pages of meaningless argument" is if other members wish it to do so.
That is not my intent. I would like sensible suggestions from those that are truly interested in understanding such things.
I suspect that, therefore, and rather sadly, there will be very few posts to follow.
-
I do not understand why you have then taken the time to write a second post that will do nothing but start another few pages of meaningless argument
The problem, in part, as I see it, is that members such as yourself don't see the value in gaining an understanding of such things.
The only reason it will "do nothing but start another few pages of meaningless argument" is if other members wish it to do so.
That is not my intent. I would like sensible suggestions from those that are truly interested in understanding such things.
I suspect that, therefore, and rather sadly, there will be very few posts to follow.
You have missed the point completely. You have dragged the 'confrontation' with SS straight over from the other thread. Why? Not necessary and yes, you have probably destroyed your own thread in the process.
-
Very short sighted of you Axe. I started it because:
I wasn't responding to your original post which I felt was thought provoking and interesting, I was responding to your jibe at SS.
That is not my intent. I would like sensible suggestions from those that are truly interested in understanding such things.
Then lets please keep this topic on track and cut out all the pointless attacks at others.
-
You have missed the point completely. You have dragged the 'confrontation' with SS straight over from the other thread. Why? Not necessary and yes, you have probably destroyed your own thread in the process.
No, you have missed the point RD. You are destroying this thread. If you're not interested in the topic, then, to mind you own words, ignore it!
Spicey has put forward the only (perfectly) sensible rationale (so far) on why the oil separates in curries and bases. To me it is a fundamentally important issue regarding cooking curries.
SS seems to have simply refuted his opinions without offering an alternative explanation.
I would dearly like SS (and anyone else who has something constructive to offer on the subject) to offer alternative explanations (rather than simply roll their eyes and ridicule) as to why it is the case and thereby offer better understanding to all of us.
It's all these "off-topic" comments and silly innuendos that derail the substance of threads.
-
I was responding to your jibe at SS
You see it as "a jibe" (another emotive word bound to cause angst), whilst I see it as an invite for SS to offer his own rationale.
-
I havent bothered to read any of the above arguments, but the question is a very good one, and I will generally surmise that it is clear to me that none of us have the definitive answer.
To try and bring things back on topic, my thoughts are that when vegetables are cooked, they absorb an amount of oil. The amount of oil absorbed is somehow proportional to the amount of water already inside the vegetable. As the vegetable is fried, the water from inside the vegetable evaporates away, and that means that the vegetable matter then has to release some of this absorbed oil to keep it in the right proportion.
So thats my theory. Its not based on any scientific evidence - its just my opinion. 8)
-
Good man MDB, thanks for your explanation 8)
I think you're probably right about none of us having the definitive answer...but, perhaps, if we discuss it enough, we may derive one.
-
isnt that the main purpose of this forum CA?? lol
I do sadly find a lot of the arguments highly amusing tho. Its funny how excited some of you lot become over what to me are pretty trivial things. You should all get out more ha ha ha!! Lifes far too short, and we should all try to pull together on our quest. I know a lot of the bitching is so heavily ingrained in the forum now, that a lot of you are all far too self opinionated and self righteous to do the obvious thing and bury the hatchet...but it does keep me amused!!
There...Ive had my little rant ;D
-
What credentials do people have anyway regarding their scientific understanding and knowledge? I have 3 solid grade A levels in biology, chemistry and physics and was originally (in 1979) doing a dentistry degree at Sheffield Uni. I left after 1 term as I'm far too squeamish to be a dentist and did an IT course instead.
It doesn't help me to create decent curries though!
The separation of oil in the base question? When you blend your base you create an emulsion due to the shearing action of the blender blades which makes the oil break up into small particles. An emulsion can be stable or not. Eventually many people see their emulsion break down and the oil surfaces. It doesn't mean anything except your emulsion was unstable. It doesn't mean that the base is cooked. Read the Wikipedia articles on emulsions and colloids if you can understand them. People have observed that adding coconut block makes it harder for the oil to separate. Yes that can make the emulsion more stable, and it may not be what you want.
The separation of the oil at the frying time, (so often described in Indian cooking books) and normally when a fry pan mixture contains tomatoes is due to water evaporating from the pan mixture. The evaporation of water prevents the oil from getting too hot but there comes a point when most of the water has gone and at this point the oil will start to get hotter than 100 degrees and you are entering a possible burn scenario. Most cookbooks will direct you to the next cooking stage at this point. It's not rocket science is it?
So what scientific credentials does SpicyTroll possess? A search of "coagulated lipoproteins" as he recommended points to glib statements on sites like Chowhound talking about the grey scum produced from boiling mixtures containing meat (i.e. lots of protein) compared with a vegetable base sauce mixture containing very little protein.
SpicyTroll show me a reference to a scientific paper where the scum of a vegetable base sauce like mixture has been analysed. Unless you can do that you are talking out of your (moderated).
Some lipoproteins are toxic so maybe Chewytikka is right and they may be considered "impurities".
Science my (moderated) and I'm surprised at members of this forum for not recognising a troll at 10 paces.
Paul
-
I'm sorry guys, I think many of your comments (so far) seem as much "trollish" as those that you accuse of being "trolls"...and I don't know why you say such things :(
I haven't seen anything that Spicey has posted that warrants him (or her) being called "a troll"......unless he (or she) has being antagonised (by, dare I say it, "trolls") ???
To me, it seems that many of you are (hypocritically) doing the things that you otherwise feel so free to criticise....i.e. bite the head off anyone who dares to express a controversial opinion :(
Now, back to the topic of the thread!.......
-
...and I will generally surmise that it is clear to me that none of us have the definitive answer.
How are you surmising that and why is it clear?
Can you give me your reasons for why you feel no-one has given you the answer?
I've now given the same answer to this question in two separate threads. I have also stated that I know with 100% certainty that the answer I have given is 100% correct.
So far not one person has been able to refute it and not one person has been able to come up with a viable alternative over and above "I don't think that's right, or it's not the definitive answer".
You're more than entitled to you own personal opinion on this, you're equally entitled to reject my answer as being wrong as long as you give your reasons for why. What you can't do (as far as I'm concerned) is state that no-one has given a definitive answer, when I already have.
If you have any questions about it, I'm more than happy to answer them.
-
@ George, you censored out my minor expletives cr4ck and 4rse when you left CAs much worse ones virtually intact!
-
The separation of the oil at the frying time, (so often described in Indian cooking books) and normally when a fry pan mixture contains tomatoes is due to water evaporating from the pan mixture. The evaporation of water prevents the oil from getting too hot but there comes a point when most of the water has gone and at this point the oil will start to get hotter than 100 degrees and you are entering a possible burn scenario. Most cookbooks will direct you to the next cooking stage at this point. It's not rocket science is it?
No it's not rocket science at all, but it seems to be for most of the people on this forum.
The answer you've given here is exactly the same as the answer I gave in the Glasgow thread that caused so much controversy - and was rejected as being wrong. So thanks for confirming my answer was 100% correct even if you didn't intend to.
Scum being formed of lipoproteins is a completely separate and largely irrelevant side issue.
-
I have also stated that I know with 100% certainty that the answer I have given is 100% correct.
You have indeed, several times!
Unfortunately, what you refuse to do, is provide scientific evidence for your claim. I do hope you'll understand that it's difficult to take the word of someone whose qualifications are typographic design and business administration as gospel in this matter.
-
I don't have any scientific explanation, but oil and water do not mix, and cannot "blend". If a base gravy contains both oil and water, then surely at some point the oil will seperate.
-
You're right Mick, they don't like to blend but a good example of a stable emulsion of water and oil is milk. One of the labels associated with milk is "homogenised".
The milk is forced through very fine filters that cause the fat globules to become extremely small and this is enough, in the case of milk, to create a stable emulsion.
But regarding base sauces, it doesn't really matter whether the oil separates unless you intend to skim some off for other uses. For the home cook freezing batches of base the separation is almost a nuisance as you will want to give it a good stir before dividing into smaller containers.
Paul
-
But regarding base sauces, it doesn't really matter whether the oil separates unless you intend to skim some off for other uses. For the home cook freezing batches of base the separation is almost a nuisance as you will want to give it a good stir before dividing into smaller containers.
Indeed. In fact, would not skimming off the oil be counter-productive, in that given that we all agree that it is the oil that is the carrier for BIR flavours (i.e., it acts as the solvent for the essential oils in the spices), would you not diminish the quality of the base if you were to skim the flavoured oil off the top ?
** Phil.
-
I only mentioned that Phil as at least one member (JerryM) says he uses excess oil in the base and skims some off for his spiced oil.
Cheers
Paul
-
I only mentioned that Phil as at least one member (JerryM) says he uses excess oil in the base and skims some off for his spiced oil. Cheers. Paul
I wonder if Jerry adds additional spices to compensate ?
** Phil.
-
Okay, here it is, so we can all get our heads round it.
In a base, or, a curry, there are 3 things.
1. water.
2. Oil.
3. Sustenance (emulsifying agent (emulsion mixture)= onions, spices ect.
We know oil and water don't mix. So we need a sustenance for the oil to stick to, which, then will mix with water. The sustenance is a carrier of the oil(bonded together), which then oil can be suspended in water.
De-emulsification.
The application of heat causes breakdown of the micelle bond (releases the oil from the sustenances).
Now we know oil floats on water, this is because oil is lighter then water.
So to get oil to come to the top, we need 2 things, HEAT & WATER.
Heat; enough to break the bond between oil & sustenance.
Water; enough to let the oil flow.
A good example; Madras, not a lot of sustenance, so oil can flow free-ish to the top.
Dansak, a lot of sustenance ie; Lentils, so its harder to de-emulsify (not a lot of water for the oil to move though, Making it harder to get to the top).
That, spiceyokooko is why i am doing an Ebook!
-
Nice explanation Chris. And this would fit with he observation that at the same time the oil separates to the top, there is a residue which forms at the bottom of the pan (the "sustenance" material no longer coated by oil). I often find that as the oil separates out of a base I can dredge up a residue from the bottom of the pan.
-
This might answer a few questions,
Why Does Oil Float?
Make a home-made lava lamp by filling a jar two-thirds full of water and put in some food colouring. Add some cooking oil. The oil will float on top of the water. Shake some salt onto the oil
-
If anyone is interested this is quite to the point:
https://stellaculinary.com/podcasts/video/what-is-an-emulsion-a-cooks-guide
As H4ppy-chris rightly says (in different words) the stability of the emulsion is determined by what he calls "sustenance" such as the non-water and non-oil components. And that does explain why lentils, cream, coconut block, flour etc. can determine how easily the oil separates, or not as the case may be.
I'm not sure what a micelle bond is though, maybe it is spelt wrong.
Cheers,
Paul
-
I'm not sure what a micelle bond is though, maybe it is spelt wrong.
If you promise not to tell those who already know, Paul, I'll let you in on a secret :
A micelle (pronounced /ma??s?l/ or /ma??si?l/, plural micelles, micella, or micellae) is an aggregate of surfactant molecules dispersed in a liquid colloid. A typical micelle in aqueous solution forms an aggregate with the hydrophilic "head" regions in contact with surrounding solvent, sequestering the hydrophobic single-tail regions in the micelle centre. This phase is caused by the packing behavior of single-tailed lipids in a bilayer. The difficulty filling all the volume of the interior of a bilayer, while accommodating the area per head group forced on the molecule by the hydration of the lipid head group, leads to the formation of the micelle. This type of micelle is known as a normal phase micelle (oil-in-water micelle). Inverse micelles have the head groups at the centre with the tails extending out (water-in-oil micelle). Micelles are approximately spherical in shape. Other phases, including shapes such as ellipsoids, cylinders, and bilayers, are also possible. The shape and size of a micelle is a function of the molecular geometry of its surfactant molecules and solution conditions such as surfactant concentration, temperature, pH, and ionic strength. The process of forming micelles is known as micellisation and forms part of the Phase behaviour of many lipids according to their polymorphism.
There, you always wanted to know that, didn't you ?!
** Phil.
-
That flew mostly right over my head, Phil ;)
-
That flew mostly right over my head, Phil ;)
That's a relief. I'd hate to think of a corybantic rogue micelle smacking you right in the face :)
-
Okay made it simple for ya "is a carrier of the oil(bonded together), ;D
-
Okay made it simple for ya "is a carrier of the oil(bonded together), ;D
Anyway Chris, none of this science malarky is making my curries any better. Your book had better be good 'cause I'll be buying it like the mug I am ;)
Monkey see monkey do is good enough for me if it means I can cook better curries. The result is more important than the explanation.
-
Nice explanation Chris. And this would fit with he observation that at the same time the oil separates to the top, there is a residue which forms at the bottom of the pan (the "sustenance" material no longer coated by oil). I often find that as the oil separates out of a base I can dredge up a residue from the bottom of the pan.
Got it in one mate.
-
i've not go the energy to read through this unless there is learning.
if i've missed some learning please point me.
i too have interest in this topic. CA says the "why" and this too is now my interest. why - because i see it other than recipe refinement as the only way to improve my curries. the "why" applies across the BIR in terms of both ingredient and technique.
my interest is really limited to base. i'd ideally like to know what the maximum amount of oil that say 1 litre of base can hold at room temp. i feel i already know the minimum if such a value is relevant.
-
Hi Jerry, there is some stuff from page 2 onwards concerning emulsions, which is how a base sauce with water and oil might behave. I also posted a link to a site detailing emulsions as used in cooking.
There is no way to answer your question accurately though I don't believe. There are just too many variables.
In case you don't know CA "left" the forum yesterday, I don't know if he will post again or not. There were some ugly scenes!
Paul
-
my interest is really limited to base. i'd ideally like to know what the maximum amount of oil that say 1 litre of base can hold at room temp. i feel i already know the minimum if such a value is relevant.
Each base would be different because each base has a differing amount of emulsifiers. It's something you'd have to find out by experimentation.
-
In case you don't know CA "left" the forum yesterday, I don't know if he will post again or not. There were some ugly scenes!
I wouldn't worry Paul. Throwing his toys out of the pram Diva style and then sheepishly returning a few months later is his forte. ;D
-
In case you don't know CA "left" the forum yesterday, I don't know if he will post again or not. There were some ugly scenes!
Paul
that would be a shame Paul, when did this happen. what posts have I missed?
Bert
-
Bert, I can't remember the thread now but if you can find his profile and look at his posts you will find them easily. He usually comes back after a few new people have praised his recipes though ;)
Paul
-
PaulP ,Secret Santa,
many thanks.
i have great respect for CA and hope he returns. it's often the case that the most important people on forums feel unloved and i'm in no doubt whatever the bust up - much love remains for CA.
on the emulsification max - i've tried 100% emulsification ie 500ml oil and 500 ml base - this is too much. given what you say i will work on it slowly.
-
Another question would be:- What is the minimum amount of oil that's needed to absorb all the essences from the spices? Or is the goal to emulsify the largest quantity of oil.
-
Hi Fried,
I think the oil in the base absorbs not just the powdered spice flavours but also some of the onion/garlic/pepper etc. flavours.
I used to slow fry an onion and pepper mixture and then used to use that oil to start my curries. I found it was too strong and actually took me away from BIR flavours.
Paul
-
Another question would be:- What is the minimum amount of oil that's needed to absorb all the essences from the spices? Or is the goal to emulsify the largest quantity of oil.
I think the optimum goal would be to have an oil/curry ratio (I'm going to term it the 'Golden Ratio') such that when a curry is just finished cooking, it is starting to barely release oil. At that point you know you must have exactly the right amount of oil for the job.
-
That would be my feeling too. It seems strange to have massive oil seperation and then scoop the oil out of the finished curry because there's too much.
-
That description sounds right to me. I've made curries using too much oil and also reduced too much water from the base. You end up with a curry that has massive pools of oil that cannot be stirred back into the sauce.
I know we joke about liking our oily curries but there are limits.
-
I think the oil in the base absorbs not just the powdered spice flavours but also some of the onion/garlic/pepper etc. flavours.
i too have come to this conclusion (my oil work led to it). i used to think it was down just to the chef garam or whole spice.
on the "oil" min for base. i think it is about 10% of the chopped onion volume. for me this equates to 150ml in 800g onion. how i arrived at this was over time through making base and tracking how much went in and how much i could reclaim when it surfaces at the end of cooking.
at frying stage i have to us more than 4 tbsp before i start to get oil in the finished curry. i feel that i burn a lot of oil off in the frying process though. my norm is 1 chef or 4 tbsp.
ps for info i now pour off the rec oil before blending just for ease of production.
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/c0b5b7adfc7aeb8784b574fea7e03f4f.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#c0b5b7adfc7aeb8784b574fea7e03f4f.jpg)
this has really been bugging me - in the container is 500ml of rec oil and 500ml of finished base - will it mix - not a chance
-
These might be relevant:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surfactants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surfactants)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_micelle_concentration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_micelle_concentration)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micelle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micelle)
I found them by clicking through from the soap article :)
My guess, based on the sole qualification of seeing a science book once, is:
Initially the oil is held in micelles.
As the water evaporates off some of the miscelles break down into monomers since the hydrophobic tail no longer forces them into the miscelle structure.
The increase in the oil layer after cooking is due to the random movement of miscelles causing some to reach the existing pools of oil and "pop" (due to the hydrophilic head).
I've not done any experiments to verify this theory but what I can say for certain is it's one of the most plausible things that I've ever made up :)