Curry Recipes Online
British Indian Restaurant Recipes - Main Dishes => BIR Main Dishes Chat => Topic started by: meggeth on December 25, 2012, 05:54 PM
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Just wanted to ask experienced chefs whether they fry spices (Bruce Edwards style), or cook spices with the sauce (Kris Dillon style), and do you think it makes any difference to your finished Curries?
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Hi Meggeth, i'm no chef, but i've tried both methods. Frying the spices in oil/ G&G / tomatoes is called baghar/tempering & i've found it to make no significant difference to taste so far. You would think it would make a huge difference, but I cant tell very much from it. .I do it pretty much as standard now when making a gravy, as it's mentioned quite a few recipe's. There is the added risk of burning though
Regards
ELW
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i think Dipuraja uses the KD or "all in" (add oil then base then spice). i think the taz approach is the same.
i suspect that most members use the BE method "hot fry spices".
it is surprising how close the result is between the 2 methods. it also depends on the dish - "cream" dishes are very tolerant. "curry" dishes ie madras are less tolerant
the hot fry or Zaal singe and quench still has some unknown in it for me. i add a chef spoon of base (you could also water the tom puree, you just need free water) to fry the spice as i get consistency and can detect the end point without burning.
i have used the hot dry fry "toffee smell" method and also experimented pushing the envelop quite a few times. i have been able to get an improved taste but no consistency. the trouble is that it could be down just to the limits of my ability or practice ie in reality i'm just cooking 1 dish better than the other albeit trying to cook them the same.
in short i've given up worrying if i "singe" enough but certainly make sure i get the quench.
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Ok, thanks guys. It seems that it probably doesn't too much difference then. As my wife is veggie, I tend to fry onions and peppers for a while, then fry spices for 10 secs with the veg. This way I'm hoping the oil can't get too hot and burn the spices.
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In my opinion it's the oil in a curry that carries the flavour so I have returned to the method of frying the spices in the oil as the oil is like blotting paper and to my mind this method delivers the most flavour.
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Just wanted to ask experienced chefs whether they fry spices (Bruce Edwards style), or cook spices with the sauce (Kris Dillon style), and do you think it makes any difference to your finished Curries?
I assume by Bruce Edwards style you mean straight into hot oil and by Kris Dillon style you mean into something frying in hot oil whether it be onions or garlic/ginger paste etc. I don't really think it matters which you do as long as you don't let the spices burn.
The Kris Dillon style has become popular for the simple reason that there's more margin of error due to the water content still being in the pan which gives you more control. There's less room for error in the Bruce Edwards method because if you misjudge the oil temperature those spices can go from being okay to burnt in seconds.
The big advantage of the Kris Dillon method is that there's an indicator as to when all the water has gone, because the oil separates, there's no indicator with the Bruce Edwards method to tell you that, hence how much easier it is to misjudge the cooking time.
I like to push my spice frying to the very limits before they start to burn and frequently continue frying for anything up to a minute after oil separation because I want to extract the maximum flavour from them as I believe that the frying of spices is the key stage that shapes the final flavour of the dish. This is done on a pretty high heat with constant stirring to stop them sticking and burning.
I've never understood why, in many videos (and even suggestions on here) people take the pan off the heat when they add spices to be fried. Why? Why are you dropping the heat, then raising it again?
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I've never understood why, in many videos (and even suggestions on here) people take the pan off the heat when they add spices to be fried. Why? Why are you dropping the heat, then raising it again?
Safety. At the moment that the spices hit the pan, one hand is already occupied holding the spice container. If you want to stir with the other hand, to minimise the risk of the spices burning, the pan will rotate because you don't have a hand free to hold the handle. With whole spices, there is no problem : there is a sufficient margin of error that the chances of them burning before you have a chance to stir is minimal; but with powdered/ground spices, the risk is significant, so I always add my ground spices to a relatively cool pan and then bring it up to frying temperature when I have both hands free, one to hold the pan handle, the other to hold the spatula. And Chef Ajoy Joshi recommends this technique as well.
** Phil.
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Phil
Thanks for clarifying the logic behind why people do that, it seems perfectly rational.
However, I've seen it done both ways. Chefs holding the pan handle with one hand, with the pan still on the heat, dipping their chefs spoon into the mix spice with the other and straight into the pan and stirring.
As I said, I'm very much in the camp of adding it whilst the pan stays on the heat myself and I can't see myself changing anytime soon to be honest. I like to keep the heat right up there when adding spices.
It would be interesting to hear from others as to what they do.
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Phil
Thanks for clarifying the logic behind why people do that, it seems perfectly rational.
However, I've seen it done both ways. Chefs holding the pan handle with one hand, with the pan still on the heat, dipping their chefs spoon into the mix spice with the other and straight into the pan and stirring.
Yes, in a commercial kitchen where the spices are "dipped" (to use Dave Lloyden's term), there is no problem, since the spices are transferred using the same spoon that will be used to stir. But for we small-scale chefs at home, who like to put 3 teaspoonsful of this and 2 teaspoonsful of that into a small container first, and then empty the container into the wok, the lack of a third hand makes a cool wok a much safer implement in terms of the risk of spice burn.
** Phil.
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Just wanted to ask experienced chefs whether they fry spices (Bruce Edwards style), or cook spices with the sauce (Kris Dillon style), and do you think it makes any difference to your finished Curries?
I assume by Bruce Edwards style you mean straight into hot oil and by Kris Dillon style you mean into something frying in hot oil whether it be onions or garlic/ginger paste etc. I don't really think it matters which you do as long as you don't let the spices burn.
The Kris Dillon style has become popular for the simple reason that there's more margin of error due to the water content still being in the pan which gives you more control. There's less room for error in the Bruce Edwards method because if you misjudge the oil temperature those spices can go from being okay to burnt in seconds.
The big advantage of the Kris Dillon method is that there's an indicator as to when all the water has gone, because the oil separates, there's no indicator with the Bruce Edwards method to tell you that, hence how much easier it is to misjudge the cooking time.
I like to push my spice frying to the very limits before they start to burn and frequently continue frying for anything up to a minute after oil separation because I want to extract the maximum flavour from them as I believe that the frying of spices is the key stage that shapes the final flavour of the dish. This is done on a pretty high heat with constant stirring to stop them sticking and burning.
I've never understood why, in many videos (and even suggestions on here) people take the pan off the heat when they add spices to be fried. Why? Why are you dropping the heat, then raising it again?
I cook on high heat and cook my spices similar to you. I dont even look in the pan as i casually dump spoonfuls in of this or that AND close the boxes back up (4 sided airtight) because i know they wont burn until i start to stir.
And even then there's still plenty of time before they burn.
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...and then empty the container into the wok, the lack of a third hand makes a cool wok a much safer implement in terms of the risk of spice burn.
Ahhh! Well I don't use a wok for that very reason, it gets far too hot, far too quickly and yes, there's every possibility you'll burn your spices. My wok's seasoned anyway so isn't any good for frying BIR style curries in.
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And even then there's still plenty of time before they burn.
I premix my spices in a stainless serving dish ready to go in and it's a quick whoosh in go the spices and immediate stirring and shaking off the pan. There's almost no delay between adding and stirring for me.
There can't be any delay because of the high heat I'm cooking at.
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And even then there's still plenty of time before they burn.
I premix my spices in a stainless serving dish ready to go in and it's a quick whoosh in go the spices and immediate stirring and shaking off the pan. There's almost no delay between adding and stirring for me.
There can't be any delay because of the high heat I'm cooking at.
Ok, so not the same as me. I've never managed to burn spices and wonder how many people have actually burned them?
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Ok, so not the same as me. I've never managed to burn spices and wonder how many people have actually burned them?
If ever you had burned ground chillies, you would remember. I once burned them in a 17th century Lakeland cottage called "Tiplog", and I though I was going to die. Once those fumes get into your lungs, you are in serious trouble.
** Phil.
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I've cooked plenty of things with some heavy duty spicing where you have to wear a mask otherwise you would be on the floor.
But I've never had to throw something away because i've burnt the spices. Revolting? Yes ;D Burnt? Yes ;D but never burnt spices.
Frank. :)
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I've never managed to burn spices and wonder how many people have actually burned them?
Probably not that many, because...that's most peoples biggest fear and they under fry them instead. Which is (in my opinion) one of the reasons why many people don't get the best flavour from their dishes. Under fried spices are still edible, burnt one's aren't.
I just wish more people would unshackle themselves from this fear and deliberately push their spice frying right to point of them being burnt, so they know with 100% certainty exactly where that point is. I think most people will be surprised just how far you can push them beyond where they usually stop, I guarantee their end results will improve no end. This is such a key stage to get right.
Just make sure you have a good extractor fan going if you're going to do this though :)
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But I've never had to throw something away because i've burnt the spices. Revolting? Yes ;D Burnt? Yes ;D but never burnt spices.
I actually think it's quite difficult to burn spices using the Kris Dillon method, ie frying them in g/g paste, onions, base sauce or whatever as long as you keep stirring like mad to stop them sticking. Which is one of the reasons a lot of people have switched over to this method, but because you're less likely to burn them this way you can push them harder and further.
However, frying only in hot oil it's incredibly easy to burn them, particularly ground spices. They turn black very quickly. I burnt some whole spices the other day I was frying for a dhal tempering because I took my eye off them, had to chuck them and start again.
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I've never understood why, in many videos (and even suggestions on here) people take the pan off the heat when they add spices to be fried. Why? Why are you dropping the heat, then raising it again?
I do this so I can get all the spices in the pan in one go (pre-mixed according to the recipe), get them nicely mixed in with the oil, and then put back on the heat so that all the spices see the same heat at the same time, rather than some cooking prematurely - probabaly doesn't make one bit of difference! :D
I then give them a good sizzling!
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I once burned them in a 17th century Lakeland cottage called "Tiplog", and I though I was going to die. Once those fumes get into your lungs, you are in serious trouble.
** Phil.
Is your middle name "Highlander" Phil? :D
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Is your middle name "Highlander" Phil? :D
"I once burned them in a Lakeland cottage called "Tiplog"; the cottage had been built in the 17th Century" (though what the date of its construction has to do with burning spices I can no longer remember). I do remember that the water came from the local burn/stream/whatever, and we found a dead sheep in said burn/stream about 100 yards upstream from the cottage ...
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When I started making curries, I used to go about it this way: Heat oil in pan, add g&g wait for sizzling to stop and tas soon as I'd throw in the ground spices into the pan and start mixing them with the spoon, they'd immediately turn into a "thick paste" so to say and there'd be no oil left to keep the spices "moist".
This would be generally when the spices would burn if I happened to mix them for far too long.
I have since given up on that and not only do I add the tom before the spices I also raise the pan from fire to add them.