Curry Recipes Online
Curry Base Recipes => Curry Base Chat => Topic started by: Dirtynunfishing on June 26, 2006, 10:10 PM
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Am new to all this.Has anyone got a recipe for 50 ltr of base sauce that can be frozen.Do you just times everything by 5 from a 10 ltr recipe?Do the spices get multiplied by 5 or will they be to strong and overpowering?What is the best way to cook 50ltr of sauce?Then I would like to cook Madras,Vandaloo,Korma,and Dansak from the same base sauce is this possible.Can anyone help?
Also is Ghee better than veg oil or not.
Not to much to ask.
Thanks Dirtynunfishing
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Do you just times everything by 5 from a 10 ltr recipe?
I'd say yes, basically - scale up or down pro-rata throughout. I'm fairly sure any other approach would be unscientific and simply wouldn't make common sense.
Regards
George
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You would need a 50 litre saucepan or two 25 litre saucepans. That is some mighty big saucepans, im not sure what size saucepans restaurants use but for home use you will need to make several batches to get 50 litres of sauce and a nice chest freezer to store it all or alot of hungry guests ;)
Ive seen some temple saucepans and they are huge, big enough for an average size bloke to crawl into. Talking serious munchies
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Also, going in at 50L is a bit rash if you're 'new'.
What if it isn't right?
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No, I wouldn't multiply spices and (especially) salt by 5. I'm guessing you'll need less. I say that from personal experience in doubling and tripling other recipes, but I imagine my experience would extend to Indian cooking, as well. I was taught that in doubling recipes, to use 1+1/2 times the amount of spices and salt, and then to taste and add more as needed. Of course, that presumes you know the taste you're looking for, and will be able to adjust accordingly. :)
Another point, probably not worth mentioning, but the sauce will evaporate at a different rate from a 50-ltr cauldron than from the usual household pot. That will change the timing, and, perhaps, the taste. Again, you'll have to know the final texture and taste you're aiming for.
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You will find the odd recipe here of those quantities, many moons ago I got the exact recipe of the base from my local takeaway (35 onions!)
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Thanks for the replies so far.I have cooked 10 ltr many times and bagged them up and froze them.I have a 50 ltr pot,I thought as much about the salt and spices,thanks merrybaker.You can allways add but not take away. Once its in its in.I will give it a go and see.The reason for this amount I have a party to cater for.Still not sure though about 1 base sauce to make the 4 different curries though.10 kg of onions is only ?5.50 so I will try a base sauce out first and then make the curries for me and the wife, and freeze the rest.
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what are the dimensions of your pot Dirtynunfishing, I usually use a couple of 4 ltr pots and they are quite large for my small cooker.
How would you heat up a 50 ltr pot? It must take a while to get it up to boiling point. :o
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I was taught that in doubling recipes, to use 1+1/2 times the amount of spices and salt, and then to taste and add more as needed.
That's interesting. I wonder if that means we should be using proportionally higher amounts of spices when scaling down Mark's 35 onion recipe, or in the scaled down recipes that others on the site have been shown?
Half a full base recipe = two thirds the original amount of spices and salt?
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The Pot takes 50ltr thats all i know and it does boil on a normal gas hob.This 35 onion recipie,are we talking large or small ones.Surely we need to be talking in kilos.Has anyone got a great recipe for 50ltr of base sauce?????????What about making the different curries in 10ltr pots.Is it the same for the spices then,1+1/2 times the amount.Can anyone enlighten me.
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I wonder if that means we should be using proportionally higher amounts of spices when scaling down Mark's 35 onion recipe... Half a full base recipe = two thirds the original amount of spices and salt?
Whoa, please don't go making major changes in good recipes just because of something I learned in home ec class many years ago. I just mentioned that as a cautionary tale.
BTW, the same teacher also taught us how to cook "a healthy breakfast" consisting of fried eggs, streaky bacon, white toast with butter, and whole milk to drink. My arteries hurt just thinking about it.
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Can we nail this one on the head and put it in the FAQ perhaps so that it doesn't rear its ugly head again?
If I cook 10 pots of curry all with exactly the same ingredients, including the spices, and I then pour them all into one big pot, the big pot of curry will taste exactly the same as the curry from the smaller pots, right? If anyone disagrees with this then you urgently need to go on a basic science course.
So, to the question "when scaling up a recipe, do I scale up the ingredients proportionally", the answer is a very incontrovertible YES!
The only thing you would have to watch out for is different evaporation rates when cooking in different size pots.
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Well, that told us. :(
No one was disagreeing with anything, YF. Merrybaker shared something about seasoning food that I hadn't heard before, and I was exploring it further. That's all.
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Hi Ian
I wasn't having go at anyone in particular, I just felt that sometimes, as in this case, common sense doesn't seem to prevail. This topic and other similar ones crop up regularly and for someone who has been with the forum since day 1 it just gets a bit tiresome.
YF
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(Is it safe to come out now?) :)
If anyone disagrees with this then you urgently need to go on a basic science course.
I'll have to admit, I do think cooking is more of an art than a science... Take BIR cooking for example: we seem to have all the recipes and all the ingredients, and yet some of us have come to the conclusion that there is an art to the actual cooking that we haven't mastered.
I know it's illogical not to scale recipes proportionately. I just wanted to urge caution. 50 ltr of sauce is a lot to have go wrong.
Here's some more info:
http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/library/NU/00586.html
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Thanks Merrybaker. At last a sensible answer to my question.Your link says it all really.I have allways thought that curry especially is a personal thing,its all about amounts of spices, when you cook them and for how long and what order you put them in the pot.If cooking was a science we could all be Gordan Ramsey or Delia Smith heaven forbid.I know the wife doesn't like vindaloo unlike me and taste is a personal thing.I have been using the curry secret base and have tried Darth's base sauce.I will be experimenting more after the world cup and let you all know how i get on.I think cooking in general is an Art because we cant all do it.I know i have cooked the same curry over and over and got different tastes from the same ingredients.Has anyone else had this happen.Be honest.
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It Used to happen to me very often when i cooked in smaller amounts,however since ive started using my 30 Onion base things are much more predictable.
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Hi Ian S
Personally, I think you made a perfectly valid observation Ian S!
I've not seen such a discussion when delving into this site (not to say that it doesn't exist; just that I've not seen the discussion...many...most... of us have not been here that long).
However, since nobody seems to have developed that "Indian restaurant taste", it seems to me that all avenues are still open to exploration! Good on you my man! :P
Ha ha! Let THAT put the cat amongst the pigeons! ;)
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PS: If I were you, Dirtynunfishing (and please feel free to disagree if you wish :)), I would cook several smaller pots of base (that I know give the desired results) and blend them together. Anything else is clearly a significant risk since not many people (home chefs, at least) cook on the scale you desire. Therefore, most comments are largely conjecture. So.....5 times 10l or 10 times 5l (or any other combination that takes your fancy)....take your pick! ;)
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Thanks Les, but let?s keep the cat well away from the pigeon coup and tucked up nice and comfy out of harm?s way. :)
On topic: Thanks for the link, Merrybaker. I was looking for one too and found this:
http://allrecipes.com/hints/scaling.asp
This includes the lines:
?Whenever you alter the amounts of ingredients for a given recipe, you may also need to adjust the cooking temperature, cooking time, pan size and seasonings.?
And:
?If you are doubling a recipe, expect to use only about 1 ? times the original amount of seasonings. If you are tripling a recipe, expect to use only about twice the original amount of seasonings. If you are dividing a recipe in half or to one-third, then use a little less than half or a third of the original amount of seasonings.?
Though whether it goes on to say that a fried breakfast of fried eggs, streaky bacon, white toast with butter, and whole milk is healthy, I can?t say! ;)
Slightly off topic: People on this site have been given recipes and demonstrations from BIR chefs. We?ve tried them at home and a lot of us have remarked that though nice, they?re not the same as the real thing. So somewhere, there?s a gap between what we?ve been shown or told and what we can produce.
We can try and fill this gap with further research (those of us that have the knack of getting into BIR kitchens ? I don?t!), with experimentation and refinement of ingredients and techniques, or even with guesswork. Or, like hundreds of members of this site, we can sit back and hope someone else cracks it and posts the magic answer (and there?s nothing wrong with that).
If you cook 10 pots of curry and then add them together I agree they?ll taste the same as they did individually. And, like George and Yellowfingers, I would have thought that if you add 10 times the ingredients to a pot and then cook them, the result would be the same. Until Merrybaker made her post. And then I thought: ?How do I know for sure that the chemical reaction in foodstuffs caused by the application of heat remains constant regardless of mass??
Alright, I didn?t. ::) I thought: ?One and a half times the salt? That?s interesting?. I know precious little about food chemistry (and don?t particularly want to know more than I have to!).
The links certainly suggest, just like Merrybaker?s Home Economics teacher, that the effect of salt and seasoning doesn?t necessarily remain constant. Whether the spices we use ? and the way we use them, in the processes of tarka and bhuna ? come under the heading of ?spices and seasonings? in the author?s mind well, once again, I?m not sure. But having read the info, can we still say it's incontravertible that all ingredients should be scaled up in direct proportion?
BIR chefs have said that quantities make a difference. Darthy?s found more consistent and reliable results cooking in bulk. I agree that evaporation would be the major factor. I don?t know that it?s the only one.
If I get into a conversation with someone and we?re kicking these ideas around, it doesn?t help to be told that we?re incontrovertibly wrong, that we urgently need basic science lessons, and that we?re displaying a lack of basic commonsense. Nothing personal, Yellowfingers, I agree ? it?s just that kind of language can create bad feeling and stifle debate, and therefore the flow of information.
Interesting that my guess about adding more than half the amount of salt & spices when halving the recipe is the exact opposite of what the author suggests in the quote above!
Ian :)
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Here's an idea that may be worth kicking around - when a large pot of sauce is heated, it takes longer to reach boiling point than a smaller one, and also longer to cool down, so the cooking time is effectively increased. Some ingredients will lose flavour, some may actually end up over cooked. The level of salting will remain the same, but overall the sauce could end up tasting saltier because of the loss of flavour of some of the other ingredients. These effects could be the source of some of the rather unscientific theories that occasionally turn up. Just a thought.
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Ian and merrybaker's arguments and references are so full of holes I barely know where to begin so I won't bother. Suffice to say that my argument that you scale proportionally is correct. If you want ten times the amount of curry that you usually cook, just multiply everything by ten.
What I should have stated, although I thought it was blindingly obvious and so didn't, is that if you scale up and use the same cooking methods that you would use for the smaller portion, then yes it will probably turn out different.
For example, say your recipe calls for lightly browning one onion. Great, you think, you get your big pot out and throw ten onions in because you've decided to scale up by ten. At the end of the cooking time you find that the onions don't quite have the same caramelisation that you find with the small batch. And of course they won't, because you're not cooking like for like. What you've done is sweat the onions because you've got too many in a bigger pan and not enough heat. You've changed your technique!
So you see it's not that the scaling up by ten that hasn't worked, it's that you've cooked it differently. Therefore let me restate my initial claim:
To the question "when scaling up a recipe, do I scale up the ingredients proportionally", the answer is a very incontrovertible YES, providing you have the wit and common sense to realise that you will need to modify your cooking method to suit.
Also cooking is definitely a science, it's just that those who have mastered it make it look like an art.
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Suffice to say that my argument that you scale proportionally is correct. If you want ten times the amount of curry that you usually cook, just multiply everything by ten.
Err, excuse me but, in the context of this thread, it was my argument. You then lent support, thank you. I'm pleased we appear to be in agreement on the basic science and common sense argument though.
e.g. If you put 5ml of salt in 100ml water and taste it, or mesaure the salinity, it will be exactly the same strength as 50ml salt in 1 litre of water or 2500ml salt in 50 litres of water. If you redduce the figure of 2500ml salt by anything significant, it will taste and measure differently.
Regards
George
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Err, excuse me but, in the context of this thread, it was my argument.
Hi George. I don't mind who's argument it was as long as common sense prevails. ::)
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If you pardon me for expressing my opinion (and perhaps you won't!), I think what should prevail is open debate and respect for other people's opinions! ;)
Whether science, art, common sense, or whatever prevails, I would like to know if anyone can reproduce that BIR taste and, if so, how?
I would also like to know if anybody can please provide me with an authentic BIR Mushroon Bhaji recipe! (request found here.....http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,1023.0.html)
I look forward to your replies! :)
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Thanks Les, but let?s keep the cat well away from the pigeon coup and tucked up nice and comfy out of harm?s way. :)
Yeah, right Ian! You wish! ;)
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This debate is making my head hurt! Everyone has made good points which probably work out in practice. I'm so unlikely to need to prepare 50 litres of base sauce in one go, that there must be better subjects for an interesting debate.
Regards
George
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e.g. If you put 5ml of salt in 100ml water and taste it, or mesaure the salinity, it will be exactly the same strength as 50ml salt in 1 litre of water or 2500ml salt in 50 litres of water. If you redduce the figure of 2500ml salt by anything significant, it will taste and measure differently.
Ah! Now technically that is true, but practically you would likely find that the larger the batch the more salty it is.
The reason for that is that the density of the salt matters when you are measuring it in terms of volume rather than mass. And a larger volume will likely have a greater density due to compaction, thus occupying a smaller volume, meaning that a fixed volume will have the greater mass pro rata.
Since we're being scientific, and all ;)
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Its good to know I can have an effect on peoples opinions.I am certain though if you gave two people the same ingredient's and told them to cook a chicken madras the resulting tastes would be different.Because its all down to the individual and their own skills.I'm all for Art over Science.
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Blimey snowdog! And I thought I was pedantic!
But just to be absolutely correct, the hygroscopic nature of salt is more likey to have a greater effect than the variation in density due to compaction, because the salt would effectively be uncompacted as it is measured out.
Honestly George, look what you've started. If only you'd said mass. :-[
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But just to be absolutely correct, the hygroscopic nature of salt is more likey to have a greater effect than the variation in density due to compaction, because the salt would effectively be uncompacted as it is measured out.
I beg to differ on two points.
Salt isn't particularly hygroscopic, so hygroscopicity isn't really an issue - especially over short time periods. In addition, hygroscopicity effects will depend on local relative humidity, which is randomly variable for all practical purposes.
However, the bulk or uncompacted density of salt crystals is approximately 1.15 g/cm3 against the absolute density figure of approximately 2.17 g/cm3. Since table salt also contains flow aids, it follows that a large volume of the granular material is likely to consolidate at a different rate to a smaller volume, especially given its low angle of repose (32 degrees). And consolidation occurs due to gravity in one direction only: towards higher density.
Thus, consolidation would have the effect mentioned ;)
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Come on guys ...get with the program ...if you want to turn the forum into a home economics science fair ...so be it. Most of us would not even remotely consider preparing recipes in massive quantities ( unless your into catering ) . Why would you freeze volume when fresh is better ( except for the end product of a base sauce ) . Control of volume ingredients is difficult at the best of times...far better to use " a workable quantity " and maintain quality . If you wish the end product to taste like something that evolved from the mess- hall kitchen ... bland and non-descript - so be it . Perhaps we should stick litmus paper into the sauce to see what the acid-base complex is !!!???
PS - quotes from google searches perporting to be your own material now border on the tiresome . Cut and paste does not exemplify knowledge !
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;D
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To snowdog:
Salt isn't particularly hygroscopic, so hygroscopicity isn't really an issue
Sorry mate you need to do better research. Salt is quite hygroscopic which is why anti-caking agents are always included in retail salt to prevent it clumping together.
Since table salt also contains flow aids
and there you go contradicting your own argument!
To CurryCanuck:
Why would you freeze volume when fresh is better ( except for the end product of a base sauce )
Beacause we don't all have leisurely lives where we can take the time to prepare from fresh.
Control of volume ingredients is difficult at the best of times...far better to use " a workable quantity " and maintain quality .
On a domestic level, control of volume gets more accurate the larger the amount of recipe you produce, so your statement is 100% incorrect.
... bland and non-decrypt so be it . Perhaps we should stick litmus paper into the sauce to see what the acid-base complex is !!!???
Now who's turning it into a science fair? You've even introduced encryption into the argument! :P
PS - quotes from google searches perporting to be your own material now border on the tiresome . Cut and paste does not exemplify knowledge !
Who was cutting and pasting, it certainly wasn't me? At this 'childrens' level of science, I don't need to refer to anything other than my own knowledge.
YF
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To be honest salt is pretty unpredictable (although it shouldnt be ), have you ever put alot of salt into a dish and suddenly thought "hmm, the recipe said 2 tsp, could use some more" or "COR blimey Mary poppins thats a bit salty", salt needs to be added carefully and tasted, that is the most reliable way.
Salt is pretty easy because you can always add a little more at the end of the dish if it needs it, spices on the other hand need to go in at the right time or you run the risk of ruining your dish or base, so its quite important to get it right. :D
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Sorry guys! I find it quite astounding that such drivel gets so much attention and so many postings! ;D
If only as much energy was devoted to developing that BIR taste...or responding to recipe requests! (here.....http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,1023.0.html) ::)
I suspect not many of us are overly impressed by the cheap point scoring going on here; I know I'm certainly not! But I could be wrong!
I presume all of you guys can actually cook a decent curry then???! ;)
Ha Ha....."duck"!
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Sorry guys! I find it quite astounding that such drivel gets so much attention and so many postings! ;D
Fat Les, do you have the wit to see the irony in your statement?
By the way, your moniker, does it imply that you are just fat or are you actually a Fat Les... hmm, perhaps I shouldn't go there ;D
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Hi People
I spoke with a couple of chefs, and they said it doesn't matter too much what the base is like.
The flavour happens in the pan, when you cook the final curry
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So I take it that no one has a good recipe then.God its like Wimbledon on here 0-15,15 all,30-15, 30 all.Ha Ha. Surely we are all grown adults???????????HAS ANYONE GOT A RECIPE for 50ltr of base sauce.And yes I have a busy life and find it a lot easier to take a frozen sauce out in the morning when i go to work and its then ready to cook when i get home.What about the chefs who cook for Indian weddings on an industrial scale,are there any on here????Please can anyone help.
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The answer to that is probably NO, those kind of quanties are too big for your average home user. There have been several suggestions on how you might be able to make that quantity and plenty of discussion on the proportion of spices to use, but no recipe. A 35 onion recipe would be now where enough for 50 litres id imagine, that less than 1 onion per litre and i use around 8 large onions for slightly less than 4 ltrs of base sauce, that works out at around 2 onions per ltr ;)
Either make several batches or get yourself down to your local takeaway and see if they can help you. Good luck
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Here Dirtynunfishing in one of these post is some maths to tell you how much the end results are you can then use your judgment to increase the ingredients to a 50 ltr version with ease matey ;D
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,674.0.html
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,673.0.html
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So - to recap, then:
Am new to all this.Has anyone got a recipe for 50 ltr of base sauce that can be frozen.
No. :)
Do you just times everything by 5 from a 10 ltr recipe?
That would be the obvious thing to do. ;)
Do the spices get multiplied by 5 or will they be to strong and overpowering?
Some people advise the use of less spices and seasoning - especially salt - when you're cooking in larger quantities. :o Others claim there are no grounds whatsoever for doing this. :-\
What is the best way to cook 50ltr of sauce?
Cooking it in smaller batches might be a good idea.
Then I would like to cook Madras,Vandaloo,Korma,and Dansak from the same base sauce is this possible.
Absolutely. :)
Also is Ghee better than veg oil or not.
Some base recipes use a combination of both. As far as I know , vegetable oil tends to be used more for cooking standard BIR bases and dishes, and is much cheaper than ghee, which tends to be used for breads and rice. It's also more associated with traditional, authentic Indian cooking.
You might like to know that ghee is very, very smelly when it's cooking!
Not to much to ask.
You wouldn't think so. ;D
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Restaurants tend to use KTC vegetable oil
The naans are brushed with oil too
Not ghee
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Thanks, Haldi. :)
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Sorry mate you need to do better research. Salt is quite hygroscopic which is why anti-caking agents are always included in retail salt to prevent it clumping together.
We're still just joking to change the subject from that argument about scaling up, aren't we?
Once again: salt isn't particularly hygroscopic. The amount of moisture it can pick up in ambient conditions is quite small and not very rapid. So whereas sugar, for example, can go on taking on moisture under the right conditions until it becomes a liquid, salt doesn't do that.
The anti-caking agents just keep it flowable for salt cellars where even the slightest caking will cause problems. I can assure you that 50kg sacks and 200kg drums of salt/sodium chloride crystals don't contain any such agents and they are perfectly stable.
The biggest effect on mass when measuring it in volumes is the change in density as it consolidates - larger volumes will consolidate more than spoonfuls :) This was only a pedantic aside to your example about scaling up, after all ;)
For the record, CurryCanuck, I have no need to cut and paste. I work in the science industry, so maybe you could actually learn something, eh?
Is their anything that meets with your ultra-high standards? You seem to have a 'pithy' (I use that term loosely) comment to say about many things ;) Maybe it's you harbouring the miraculous secret to BIRs?
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Once again: salt isn't particularly hygroscopic. And the amount of moisture it can pick up in ambient conditions is quite small and not very rapid. So whereas sugar, for example, can go on taking on moisture under the right conditions until it becomes a liquid, salt doesn't do that.
Fact 1: Pure salt will adsorb water from the atmosphere causing surface 'melting' on the salt crystals. This then recrystalises, attaching to surrounding crytals in the process which causes the clumping effect.
Fact 2: The rate at which salt adsorbs water and the degree to which it is adsorbed is irrelevant to this discussion. All that counts is the mechanism by which clumping occurs as in Fact 1.
The anti-caking agents just keep it flowable for salt cellars where even the slightest caking will cause problems
Fact: anti-caking agents are added to pure salt to absorb the water which would otherwise be taken up by the salt, hence preventing caking.
So yes, anti-caking agents are added to salt to maintain its flow charcteristics, but they do this by preventing the salt from adsorbing water and you just don't seem to get this.
The biggest effect on mass.....
Do what? The mass isn't affected in any way. You can consolidate the salt any way you want, the density will increase but the mass of salt doesn't change at all.
But we were just joking, right?
I don't know about you but I take anything I read on this forum with a pinch of salt. ;)
YF
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Pure salt may well absorb moisture from the atmosphere, but it ISN'T a lot. Hence the word 'particularly' in my two posts on the subject ;) You raised hygropscopicity, not me. The biggest effect on the mass of a given volume of salt is the packed density and not hygroscopicity effects.
Do you know what those anti-caking agents are? They are there as lubricants not adsorbents. The ones most likely to be used are colloidal silicon dioxide or magnesium stearate, though I believe salt has magnesium carbonate in it. They improve flow, but they don't preferentially absorb water.
Mass per unit volume IS affected by density. 1000 cm3 of loosely packed salt weighs less than 1000 cm3 of densely packed salt. This was the original point, so don't try and wander off down the you-said-I-said route ;)
No one would measure 2,500 cm3 of salt as in the previous example ;)
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Do you prefer Ham to Mittens then ?
Oh, and Mermaids are real.
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:)
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So - to recap, then:Not to much to ask.
You wouldn't think so. ;D
Thanks for the laugh, Ian. That's what we needed at this point. :)
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Thanks Darth.Me and the Wife have just had a wicked chicken madras.I used your base sauce.I cooked 1 onion with some Garlic and Ginger in oil.then whole cardomon seeds with Cinnamon and some cloves and whole coriander seeds .Then some chili and Pataks tikka masala paste,stir fried for 2 minutes with 1 cup of water to stop the spices burning.Then the chicken and 1 stock cube,then 1 tin of toms and 500ml of your base sauce,then some Gara masala and the wife said it was the best curry i have ever made,better than the BIR's. Now i don't know if it was because she was drunk from watching England loose in the World cup,but it was Bloody lovely,I can still taste it now in my mouth 2 hours later.So the curry quest continues,and no I didn't put salt in it.Can we stop all this talk about salt when its just so bad for you anyway.
Thanks Darth, you are the man.
From your humble apprentice.
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Can we stop all this talk about salt when its just so bad for you anyway.
Salt is absolutely neccessary for a healthy body and......no, wait, I think I'll quit while I'm ahead!
YF
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;D