Topic: How hot do i have to get my spices?

[Domi]

Thanks for giving it a go Jerry

I'd be careful about getting the oil too hot though before you add the tomato/chilli/g&g/onion paste, I only add around a tablespoon of oil directly to a red hot pan and throw the paste in on top of the oil then stir fry and keep it moving around the hotter edges of the pan (less chance of burning that way too) then I add the spices after a minute or so (when the toffee-like smell is, as you say more of a puff, the full aroma comes after the spices are added, then quickly add the chicken (only adding base/fried onion to lower the temp in the pan if needed). I never pre-cook the chicken either, unless it's a CT dish of course

BTW a scant quarter tsp of La chinata smoked paprika adds to the toffee-smell if you add it to the tomato/onion etc paste . Just my personal preference, some like it, others don't but it's always good to experiment I say.

One more thing I do is to add 2 good chef's pinches of kasuri methi, crushed between my fingers (follows on from Haldi's finger-sniffing post earlier lol) into my curry spice mix, I believe it really does add to the taste and smell....again, my opinion only, I don't know what kind of taste you're actually looking for and bear in mind I do like a more strongly flavoured curry (it's a northern thing, I think lol).

If nothing else, it certainly clears your sinuses ;D but parker21 did warn you

[Rai]

I look forward to reading your results Rai.

No problem, ill get to it soon 

[Rai]

I think if you read carefully through this thread you will find the questions have been answered

In summary

Maybe also see mine which summarises all (not just sns's) opinions on the subject http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2548.msg22533.html#msg22533

I think you will see that opinions are all over the place.

Ideally the oil temperature should be at 160-180C

Why do you say that please?

The ideal temperature is found by experience, not by measuring

For crying out loud.  What is this aversion to measuring the temperature (however you do it use stale crusty bread for all i care but please provide meaningful practical advice)? 

This advice is quite different from what domi has been saying ("low heat") isnt it?

[Domi]

Now youre arguing against yourself domi.  Or dont you use a timer?  Just sniff the air huh

No Rai....A timer is useless if your cooker temperature gauge is wrong. Since it's commonly known that not all cooker gauges are set exactly, an exact cooking time really helps no-one, you have to cook a cake (or spices) until they're cooked, knowing when they're cooked comes with experience. A cake may look cooked, but when you take it out of the oven the drop in temperature will make the cake sink, so testing by smell and touch is important, no matter how you scoff. Since this thread is in the beginner's section, it's important to point that out as we all use different equipment, you have to know your own equipment and ingredients and how to get the best out of them, just the difference in cooking pans can make a huge difference, i.e. hot spots, heat retention, even the size of a pan can have some positive/negative effect on a dish....it's not as easy as getting an exact temperature.

I don't think anyone has an aversion to testing temperatures, but you really do have to be careful when stating exact times and temperatures as you could quite easily burn or undercook something by not taking into account the factors above (unless you're going to measure the pan temperature constantly, and you just don't have time for that (nor would I have the inclination lol). Again, you have to know when something is cooked properly....if a new cook were to cook Blade's chicken tikka, the recipe states to cook for 4 minutes either side then rest for 4 minutes, but depending on someone's grill it may take twice as long per side, and I'd hate for anyone to go down with salmonella by following an exact time :-X Knowing how to tell when your chicken is cooked is the all important thing, not necessarily just the time and temperature.

Strictly following times and temperatures can be dangerous, as any new cook needs to know, surely it's fundamental?

Or am I wrong again, Rai?

[Domi]

Originally posted by Rai...

It comes down to an approximate time at an approximate temperature domi

Thank you for finally accepting that, recipes are guidelines, knowing when things are cooked is most important, which comes with experience and is exactly what I and others have stated in this thread....

[SnS]

Hi All

I have removed some offensive comments (and related replies) and deleted some "off topic" posts from this thread.

Regards

SnS  ;D

[SnS]

The ideal temperature is found by experience, not by measuring

For crying out loud.  What is this aversion to measuring the temperature (however you do it use stale crusty bread for all i care but please provide meaningful practical advice)? 

This advice is quite different from what domi has been saying ("low heat") isnt it?

Hi Rai

You appear almost possessed with knowing the ideal oil temperature. Temperature is a number only and means nothing in this context as it is not (normally) going to be measured while you are cooking. However, I have already said that it should be ABOUT 160 to 180C.

When you fry an egg, do you measure the oil temperature before you crack the egg into the pan? No, of course not.

If the oil temperature causes the egg to jump around the pan and the oil to splutter all over the kitchen, you turn the heat down.
If the egg just sits there winking defiantly back at you , and doesn't show any signs of cooking, you turn the heat up.

At no stage do you reach for a thermometer to measure the oil temperature. You know through experience what an egg looks like when it's being fried. The same applies to frying anything else, whether this be egg, chips, sausages or even spices.

SnS  ;D

[Domi]

Aye what smokenspices said

Boiling an egg is a good example, we know that water boils at 100 degrees celcius, but does knowing that fact alone allow for a perfectly cooked egg? The answer is no....there are many other factors which come into the equation, size of egg, temperature of the egg - has it been kept in the fridge or at room temperature - number of eggs being used etc etc, it all has to be taken into account or you could end up with a hard-boiled rather than a soft-boiled finish (or raw in some cases) so how do we learn to boil an egg? by doing it and learning from our mistakes (if any are made, that is).

The fact is , not everyone can boil an egg : I doubt Delia would have bothered making it a subject in her "how to cook" book/series....there are many ways to boil an egg, 4 minute, 5 minute etc we choose which way suits us best...there are foolproof ways to boil an egg, however we can all be sure that a fool will cock it up somewhere along the line :

[Domi]

Originally by Pappa Dom

Personally, I think it would be helpful if people could not only elaborate a little more on the ballparks temperatures and times (and their reasoning) but also on the other ways (visible, olfactory, etc) of telling when the ground spices are actually cooked properly.  I think Apprentice touched on this and suggested a more detailed explanation may also help her.

Hi Pappa Don't be scared I've got me muzzle on ;D

The trouble is, there is no hard and fast rule. Having an exact time or temperature makes little difference for the factors I have posted above. I have never read in any cookbook any guide which tells you what temperature exactly a "low heat" is, or any other heat for that matter. Deep fat fryers and ovens have temperature gauges, gas rings/electrical hobs don't usually, but they do have markings showing low, medium and high. I'm afraid I and most cookery books assume that everyone would know or have some approximation of what "a low heat" means, and I'd suggest you start there and either turn the heat up if needed or down if such be the case.

All recipes tell you an approximate cooking time or what to look out for (in this case, the toffee-like aroma which I and others have described, once you smell it, you'll know it forever and there are different ways to achieve this, you must try the different ways and settle on a technique which suits you or in your opinion gives the best results.

If you read up on roasting spices, the general consensus is to roast over a low heat until the spices give out their aromas, no doubt if there were a hard and fast rule they would state warm your pan to X degrees before adding the spices, but the cookbooks tell you to rely on your other senses (smell in this case). Obviously if you have no sense of smell, this is going to be a bit of a bugger lol
You have to learn to trust your nose, but the more you use the spices, the better you'll be able to tell.

No doubt Heston Blumenthal would know the best temperature for each individual spice to release their aromas, (perhaps Rai could e-mail him since the issue seems of such importance) but we're not all that anal about it are we? I mean I like chicken tikka but I'll be buggered if I'm gonna dig a pit in my back garden like Heston did, I'll stick to Blade's chicken tikka recipe and method thank you very much ;D

Don't forget, we use spice mixes so individual spice times are irrelevant, the best way to tell is with your nose and I'm afraid that comes with experience. Smell your raw spice mix, then keep smelling it as you heat it, (same for roasting spices pre-curry making or in the actual curry-making process itself) if there is little or no change in aroma, turn the heat up slightly (continuing with only slight increases if enough heat is not generated), you should be able to tell when it's burning by the aroma...but when you get that toffee-like hit, you have to move fast as it is not far off the burning stage (as I believe parker21 stated in an earlier post).

BTW if you haven't tried Blade's tikka recipe, you really must, it's delicious! ;D

[parker21]

well said domi
as i read down your posting regarding boiling an egg,never guess who sprang to mind....and there you said it and  big smile crossed my face ( why didn't we think of that earlier) and a chuckle, good old delia!!

i have a little experiment rai this will tell you if spices release their aroma above or below 100C.
boil a kettle (we all know that water boils at 100C)
when it has boiled, having already measured out say 2 dsp of you spices mix/chilli powder
add the water to the spices and stir well.put the pan on full power on what ever cooking device you use and wait for the aroma to change.the spices will only release the aroma when the water content has evaporated ie in excess of 100C. i know cos i just did it. i know that because the temperature of the water was already 100C having just boiled it this was boilng in excess of 3 mins. i was using  a nonstick frying pan. in the time for the water to boil away ther was no spices release, so i conclude that the spices need to be added to the pan of hot oil directly as a BIR chef would do as documented in most of the demos.


my biggest suggestion to all newbies is to read and take in the methods written by Bruce Edwards Curryhouse cookery which i have said many many many times but it all seems to fall on deaf ears! the oil should be hot enough to sizzle either garlic/ fine chopped peppers or onion as it hits the pan allow to sizzle for approxiamtely before adding the spice mix this should be stirred in well and again allowed to sizzle ( or as i have mentioned in my Rajver posts when adding the fine chopped garlic to the pan it will sizzle and start to float this is the time to remove the pan from the heat to add the spices so the oil is not too hot to burn the spices) which is easy as the recipes use 4tbsp of vegetable oil, unfortunately there is one thing he failed to mention and that is the "toffee like aroma" which is released when the spices have been "cooked"

Bruce edwards curryhouse cookery free download to all members in the downloads section of this forum!

oh just before i go rai i don't this thermometer is going to be of any help in this method of cooking  specially to anyone who is a beginner. since the birth of this forum back in december 2004 so many thousands of memebers have joined all trying to recreate their favourite Bir curries many have had their answers and acheived there goal following the methods and recipes posted. some have not found what they are looking for and so have adapted the recipes to personal tastes mixing and matching base sauces and recipes and all that has been done without the need for any thermometers. we all have had disasters and i'm no exception, even when my wife thinks that the curry i have cooked is fantastic i have still not been happy with the results, still questioning myself, the methods, ingredients and base sauce.
the best gauges availalble are your nose and ears and  eyes and mind put those four together with a good base recipe and method from those who have got the experience and then you will have what you want. this is not complicated, making mistakes you learn.

i have a question for you rai( ready domi)

do we really need to go any further with this? if the answer is yes please come back with the results to your experiment you will need 1 infra thermometer preferably in red and 3 people. 1 to do the cooking and 1 to point the thermometer and shout out the readings and 1 to document the readings. each of the persons present must know what they are doing and when to do it.

hope no one is too bored with the above waffle.

 

regards
gary